4 ms·

So many people seem to forget that - helping those with the least, helps us all. From a purely mercenary point of view, it helps build you more customers and mo

by ljf 4y ago

So many people seem to forget that - helping those with the least, helps us all. From a purely mercenary point of view, it helps build you more customers and more skilled workers.

newsclues 4y ago
Poverty is costly, and if your region has a social safety net that includes healthcare, thus resolving poverty will save tax payers in the long run. But from the mercenary point of view, I think reducing poverty is worth it from a security and quality of life point of view. If public spaces are dangerous that is no good for people and poverty also degrades peoples quality of life, examples like not having to step over homeless people outside your front door don't really have dollar values, but they make people happier.
- vasco 4y ago
  > examples like not having to step over homeless people outside your front door don't really have dollar values Not trying to be crass but that's literally reflected in the real estate prices. Homes in areas with lots of homelessness and related crime in the area will have lower prices than equivalent homes somewhere else. It does have a dollar value.
  - newsclues 4y ago
    Sure, everything has a dollar value if you drill down far enough. But it's not extra money in your pocket if you don't sell your property.
  - pipodeclown 4y ago
    Sure... You could also reframe it as the cost of building a big gate around your low homelessness neighborhood to keep the homeless out and to have security personelle to boot them out of the neighberhoud if they do get in...
- mr_00ff00 4y ago
  This might ignite a fight in the comments, but it’s a genuine question. (As an American) when I think of places that fight crime primarily with welfare (aka the idea better policing doesn’t work, equality will fix it), I think of San Francisco and Seattle which have crazy homeless and crime problems. However, it seems to me like in Europe, plenty of places seem to do this and see positive results. What’s the difference? Why is the welfare city of San Francisco terrible but the welfare city of Amsterdam/Stockholm/etc seem to be fine?
  - newsclues 4y ago
    Is the goal of policy profit, or to fix a problem? I am in Canada, so we have a blend of American, and European society, and it seems that when people want to extract money from the community, the problem isn't resolved. I see this in the homeless/drug space from activist organizations who are extracting lots of money from government, but are not doing a good job of solving problems, as that would end the flood of money.
  - vasco 4y ago
    My guess is it comes from drug related policies, education, culture and enforcement. The USA is the developed country with the highest per-capita rates of alcohol & drug use disorders and drug related deaths. I believe this is due to the geography and high purchasing power of americans, not due to any flaws in character. You're in a place it's easy to get drugs into, and people earn enough to buy them. This then creates a mental health and drug epidemic which are the true cause of most homelessness in the cities you reference, as opposed to purely being lack of money, job or housing, though these problems are obviously not mutually exclusive.
  - The_Double 4y ago
    The problem for san Francisco is that they just attract more homeless whenever they try to help them. You can not solve poverty in a single city with open borders, you need to solve it for the whole state/country. Especially if the city has a temperate climate that attracts homeless anyway. As an aside: The big cities in the Netherlands also have some of the poorest neighborhoods in the country. If you pick a random smaller town/city it is likely to have less poverty than Amsterdam, (but also less wealthy residents).
- silverwasthere 4y ago
  It sort of seems to me (seattle area resident) that our social programs are under attack from concept to execution by people that would rather the disadvantaged just die. The people doing good work get burned out fast, the money dries up, its just bad. My neighbor was the director of a homeless shelter and the crap he had to deal with was unreal. I look at it kinda like the anti car movement. The big companies supported whichever side would save them money. They supported getting rid of street parking for bike lanes and making parking under a building part of code.... then sabatoged it by making the parking all permit only or very expensive. Now theres too little parking either way to go shopping and the anti car people get to look bad. But it didnt really affect the average s class driver at all so who cares right? This is just the impression I got working downtown for 10 years. Probably have some misunderstandings.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Waterluvian 4y ago
You also just build a nicer world to live in. The mere concept of a “gated community” is bizarre and dystopian.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  At the macro level, a country’s immigration controls are the gates for that community and at a micro level, the locked doors/gates to a house or property are the gates. At which level they should or should not exist is dependent on many parameters, but I would not classify it as bizarre. People in the US are fortunate enough to have so much space that many times distances themselves serve as the gate, but if you live in a more dense society, perhaps a controlled border is necessary for some purpose. It is dystopian though, I imagine it is a direct representation of lack of trust between the members in society, and likely related to the size of wealth gaps.
- tomp 4y ago
  I'm pretty sure the Netherlands is a "gated community". Every EU country is. At current technology levels, it's simply impossible to have a "social net" (i.e. guaranteeing every citizen enough resources for a minimum standard of living) and open borders (i.e. infinite demand for said resources)
- kortilla 4y ago
  > The mere concept of a “gated community” is bizarre and dystopian. Oh? Well how easy is it for a poor person from India to move to the Netherlands to take advantage of this?
  - WildGreenLeave 4y ago
    We have a lot of expats from India, mostly software engineering. They are being picked based on their skills. Income/background does not have anything to do with this, even more so, I think that using that kind of information is even illegal here. That being said, there is a different argument to be made. The Netherlands does not have a lot of private schools, and private schools generally tend to not be more exclusive than regular schools. This means that an applicant that went to private school might have an advantage but generally you can go to any school and there will be plenty of decent paying jobs or chances for you. Along with that, every person in The Netherlands is able to go and study. Either you take out a (compared to the US, small) loan and even that is being reverted to a gift from the government or you work along side to it. I am quite sure that this is not the case in India and therefore a poor person will have less of a chance then a rich person. But this is unrelated to the companies hiring and it is purely related to your study.
WeylandYutani 4y ago
Absolutely. The political reason for the Dutch social safety: stop an impending socialist/communist revolution. This was a real threat in Europe at the time. A second reason was scientific: poor people were spreading diseases which are a threat for everyone. A third reason was economic: healthy and happy people work harder.

by ljf 4y ago

So many people seem to forget that - helping those with the least, helps us all. From a purely mercenary point of view, it helps build you more customers and more skilled workers.

newsclues 4y ago

Poverty is costly, and if your region has a social safety net that includes healthcare, thus resolving poverty will save tax payers in the long run. But from the mercenary point of view, I think reducing poverty is worth it from a security and quality of life point of view. If public spaces are dangerous that is no good for people and poverty also degrades peoples quality of life, examples like not having to step over homeless people outside your front door don't really have dollar values, but they make people happier.

vasco 4y ago
> examples like not having to step over homeless people outside your front door don't really have dollar values Not trying to be crass but that's literally reflected in the real estate prices. Homes in areas with lots of homelessness and related crime in the area will have lower prices than equivalent homes somewhere else. It does have a dollar value.
- newsclues 4y ago
  Sure, everything has a dollar value if you drill down far enough. But it's not extra money in your pocket if you don't sell your property.
- pipodeclown 4y ago
  Sure... You could also reframe it as the cost of building a big gate around your low homelessness neighborhood to keep the homeless out and to have security personelle to boot them out of the neighberhoud if they do get in...
mr_00ff00 4y ago
This might ignite a fight in the comments, but it’s a genuine question. (As an American) when I think of places that fight crime primarily with welfare (aka the idea better policing doesn’t work, equality will fix it), I think of San Francisco and Seattle which have crazy homeless and crime problems. However, it seems to me like in Europe, plenty of places seem to do this and see positive results. What’s the difference? Why is the welfare city of San Francisco terrible but the welfare city of Amsterdam/Stockholm/etc seem to be fine?
- newsclues 4y ago
  Is the goal of policy profit, or to fix a problem? I am in Canada, so we have a blend of American, and European society, and it seems that when people want to extract money from the community, the problem isn't resolved. I see this in the homeless/drug space from activist organizations who are extracting lots of money from government, but are not doing a good job of solving problems, as that would end the flood of money.
- vasco 4y ago
  My guess is it comes from drug related policies, education, culture and enforcement. The USA is the developed country with the highest per-capita rates of alcohol & drug use disorders and drug related deaths. I believe this is due to the geography and high purchasing power of americans, not due to any flaws in character. You're in a place it's easy to get drugs into, and people earn enough to buy them. This then creates a mental health and drug epidemic which are the true cause of most homelessness in the cities you reference, as opposed to purely being lack of money, job or housing, though these problems are obviously not mutually exclusive.
- The_Double 4y ago
  The problem for san Francisco is that they just attract more homeless whenever they try to help them. You can not solve poverty in a single city with open borders, you need to solve it for the whole state/country. Especially if the city has a temperate climate that attracts homeless anyway. As an aside: The big cities in the Netherlands also have some of the poorest neighborhoods in the country. If you pick a random smaller town/city it is likely to have less poverty than Amsterdam, (but also less wealthy residents).
silverwasthere 4y ago
It sort of seems to me (seattle area resident) that our social programs are under attack from concept to execution by people that would rather the disadvantaged just die. The people doing good work get burned out fast, the money dries up, its just bad. My neighbor was the director of a homeless shelter and the crap he had to deal with was unreal. I look at it kinda like the anti car movement. The big companies supported whichever side would save them money. They supported getting rid of street parking for bike lanes and making parking under a building part of code.... then sabatoged it by making the parking all permit only or very expensive. Now theres too little parking either way to go shopping and the anti car people get to look bad. But it didnt really affect the average s class driver at all so who cares right? This is just the impression I got working downtown for 10 years. Probably have some misunderstandings.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Waterluvian 4y ago

You also just build a nicer world to live in. The mere concept of a “gated community” is bizarre and dystopian.

lotsofpulp 4y ago
At the macro level, a country’s immigration controls are the gates for that community and at a micro level, the locked doors/gates to a house or property are the gates. At which level they should or should not exist is dependent on many parameters, but I would not classify it as bizarre. People in the US are fortunate enough to have so much space that many times distances themselves serve as the gate, but if you live in a more dense society, perhaps a controlled border is necessary for some purpose. It is dystopian though, I imagine it is a direct representation of lack of trust between the members in society, and likely related to the size of wealth gaps.
tomp 4y ago
I'm pretty sure the Netherlands is a "gated community". Every EU country is. At current technology levels, it's simply impossible to have a "social net" (i.e. guaranteeing every citizen enough resources for a minimum standard of living) and open borders (i.e. infinite demand for said resources)
kortilla 4y ago
> The mere concept of a “gated community” is bizarre and dystopian. Oh? Well how easy is it for a poor person from India to move to the Netherlands to take advantage of this?
- WildGreenLeave 4y ago
  We have a lot of expats from India, mostly software engineering. They are being picked based on their skills. Income/background does not have anything to do with this, even more so, I think that using that kind of information is even illegal here. That being said, there is a different argument to be made. The Netherlands does not have a lot of private schools, and private schools generally tend to not be more exclusive than regular schools. This means that an applicant that went to private school might have an advantage but generally you can go to any school and there will be plenty of decent paying jobs or chances for you. Along with that, every person in The Netherlands is able to go and study. Either you take out a (compared to the US, small) loan and even that is being reverted to a gift from the government or you work along side to it. I am quite sure that this is not the case in India and therefore a poor person will have less of a chance then a rich person. But this is unrelated to the companies hiring and it is purely related to your study.

WeylandYutani 4y ago

Absolutely. The political reason for the Dutch social safety: stop an impending socialist/communist revolution. This was a real threat in Europe at the time. A second reason was scientific: poor people were spreading diseases which are a threat for everyone. A third reason was economic: healthy and happy people work harder.