6 ms·

This is kind of an outdated notion. In the 90's NL was very progressive, but after 3 decades of conservative-neoliberal governments it's middling at most. E.g.

by dtech 4y ago

This is kind of an outdated notion. In the 90's NL was very progressive, but after 3 decades of conservative-neoliberal governments it's middling at most. E.g. selling weed to stores is still illegal - massively funding the underworld because there's no legal supply - which is quite backwards compared to Canada & some US states. Or up until a few years ago NL was dead-last in the EU for amount of parental leave a father gets (2 days), which was only changed when the EU forced them to by setting a minimum. Most (semi-)public services like health, public transport, taxes and education are also performing poorly and/or very fragile after long periods of budget cuts and neoliberal policies.

JumpinJack_Cash 4y ago
> > massively funding the underworld because there's no legal supply If the underworld only crime is to sell weed then what's the problem? It's just a matter of semantics. I think what you mean is that it's defacto legal but you have to chit-chat with some guy or gal who'd also try to sell you some of his/her music or a club entrance when they are DJ-ing as opposed to just ordering it on Amazon The football ultras/hooligans phenomenon might also qualify as underworld but they mostly beat each others up
- rtpg 4y ago
  The “problem” with this sort of stuff happening in a non legal way is that you end up in a space with no worker protections, no legal recourse, a lot of uncertainty that can lead to exploitation, etc etc etc Society existed that way for a long time but there’s a reason we stopped doing feudalism To your point not having everything enter the capitalist sphere is good, I think it’s possible to navigate one without the other
  - actionfromafar 4y ago
    The dark economy in the NL also now have enough cash at hand to bribe and threaten officials of all sorts.
    - asdff 4y ago
      Just like Italy then with the mafia and the landfills.
- lm28469 4y ago
  > If the underworld only crime is to sell weed then what's the problem? Well it doesn't exist in a vacuum, crime = money, money = competition, competition = violence [0] And it's not only weed, they're one of the main point of entry for coke in Europe [1] Some even start to talk about a narco state given how widespread drug related gang violence and corruption is [2][3] But yeah I guess it's easier to see it as a western progressive paradise [0] https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/oct/06/cartel-journalist-gangland-killings-netherlands-peter-r-de-vries https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/oct/06/cartel-journali... [1] https://www.euractiv.com/section/justice-home-affairs/news/europes-biggest-port-rotterdam-drowning-in-cocaine/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/justice-home-affairs/news/e... [2] https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/narco-state-netherlands-the-slippery-dutch-slope-from-drug-tolerance-to-drug-terror-a-4c064859-9faf-495f-b1f7-c74900910568 https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/narco-state-neth... [3] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50821542 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50821542
- mettamage 4y ago
  > If the underworld only crime is to sell weed then what's the problem? It's just a matter of semantics. No it's not because it means it's also more profitable. More profit while something is illegal means it's more attractive to criminals to pursue. It means that the coke dealers, criminals from other EU countries (eastern Europeans or Russians) and other people that don't give a shit about The Netherlands will take it up and do it as a side hustle thing. And sure there are also "pure weed dealers", and yes for this group it's (almost) pure semantics. However, they now have to deal with crazed criminals that aren't afraid of shooting you when things go sour. Source: I'm from Amsterdam, I've heard enough stories and anecdotal evidence is enough to challenge you on your assumptions that it's "just a matter of semantics".
  - JumpinJack_Cash 4y ago
    Interesting and thanks for your perspective. Would you say moving even further and legalize everything except heroin and fetanyl would make things better? When everything is legal the only recourse for criminals to make money is extortion and even that could go away with full digital payments
    - tough 4y ago
      It kinda did in Portugal in the nineties, including heroin btw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal

by dtech 4y ago

JumpinJack_Cash 4y ago

> > massively funding the underworld because there's no legal supply If the underworld only crime is to sell weed then what's the problem? It's just a matter of semantics. I think what you mean is that it's defacto legal but you have to chit-chat with some guy or gal who'd also try to sell you some of his/her music or a club entrance when they are DJ-ing as opposed to just ordering it on Amazon The football ultras/hooligans phenomenon might also qualify as underworld but they mostly beat each others up

rtpg 4y ago
The “problem” with this sort of stuff happening in a non legal way is that you end up in a space with no worker protections, no legal recourse, a lot of uncertainty that can lead to exploitation, etc etc etc Society existed that way for a long time but there’s a reason we stopped doing feudalism To your point not having everything enter the capitalist sphere is good, I think it’s possible to navigate one without the other
- actionfromafar 4y ago
  The dark economy in the NL also now have enough cash at hand to bribe and threaten officials of all sorts.
  - asdff 4y ago
    Just like Italy then with the mafia and the landfills.
lm28469 4y ago
> If the underworld only crime is to sell weed then what's the problem? Well it doesn't exist in a vacuum, crime = money, money = competition, competition = violence [0] And it's not only weed, they're one of the main point of entry for coke in Europe [1] Some even start to talk about a narco state given how widespread drug related gang violence and corruption is [2][3] But yeah I guess it's easier to see it as a western progressive paradise [0] https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/oct/06/cartel-journalist-gangland-killings-netherlands-peter-r-de-vries https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/oct/06/cartel-journali... [1] https://www.euractiv.com/section/justice-home-affairs/news/europes-biggest-port-rotterdam-drowning-in-cocaine/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/justice-home-affairs/news/e... [2] https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/narco-state-netherlands-the-slippery-dutch-slope-from-drug-tolerance-to-drug-terror-a-4c064859-9faf-495f-b1f7-c74900910568 https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/narco-state-neth... [3] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50821542 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50821542
mettamage 4y ago
> If the underworld only crime is to sell weed then what's the problem? It's just a matter of semantics. No it's not because it means it's also more profitable. More profit while something is illegal means it's more attractive to criminals to pursue. It means that the coke dealers, criminals from other EU countries (eastern Europeans or Russians) and other people that don't give a shit about The Netherlands will take it up and do it as a side hustle thing. And sure there are also "pure weed dealers", and yes for this group it's (almost) pure semantics. However, they now have to deal with crazed criminals that aren't afraid of shooting you when things go sour. Source: I'm from Amsterdam, I've heard enough stories and anecdotal evidence is enough to challenge you on your assumptions that it's "just a matter of semantics".
- JumpinJack_Cash 4y ago
  Interesting and thanks for your perspective. Would you say moving even further and legalize everything except heroin and fetanyl would make things better? When everything is legal the only recourse for criminals to make money is extortion and even that could go away with full digital payments
  - tough 4y ago
    It kinda did in Portugal in the nineties, including heroin btw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal