6 ms·

Change my mind: The Netherlands are in the top percentile of every quality of life metric except for weather. From pensions, to drugs, to sex work, to engineer

Change my mind: The Netherlands are in the top percentile of every quality of life metric except for weather. From pensions, to drugs, to sex work, to engineering they are always at the frontier. No big tech but that's more a function of 'working to live' vs. 'living to work' than outright inability to mint unicorns.

ddorian43 4y ago
Programmer wages are pretty low compared to cost of living.
- chaoz_ 4y ago
  Rent is not cheap, but if you are okay with 1 hour commute you can live in the Hague, Leiden or Utrecht. Less tourists also. Btw, there are large companies in AMS (Booking, Amazon, Meta, Uber) and some financial shops. It's not comparable with US, but definitely in top3 in EMEA region.
  - ddorian43 4y ago
    > Btw, there are large companies in AMS (Booking, Amazon, Meta, Uber) and some financial shops. It's not comparable with US, but definitely in top3 in EMEA region. Yes, only those big companies pay "ok" wages. To all others thinking "but free healthcare/whatever/etc", then why don't these companies pay enough (compared to USA,England) for remote where you only pay in gross?
    - asdff 4y ago
      "but free healthcare" is ridiculous too. I don't think people understand how cheap healthcare now is in the U.S.. I know people on ACA plans that cover health, dental, and vision, copays in line with what I pay, for about $75 a month (I think this is silver tier). Chances are you are taking a much bigger salary hit working in europe than $75 a month. I guess you can save on education, but that savings probably starts looking smaller too when you consider in state tuition rates, community college credit prices, or the fact most private colleges dish out full ride financial aid packages like candy to anyone making below a certain threshold.
  - gield 4y ago
    Switzerland, France, Germany, Luxemburg, Spain. The Netherlands is definitely not in the top 3 of European tech wages vs cost of living.
dtech 4y ago
This is kind of an outdated notion. In the 90's NL was very progressive, but after 3 decades of conservative-neoliberal governments it's middling at most. E.g. selling weed to stores is still illegal - massively funding the underworld because there's no legal supply - which is quite backwards compared to Canada & some US states. Or up until a few years ago NL was dead-last in the EU for amount of parental leave a father gets (2 days), which was only changed when the EU forced them to by setting a minimum. Most (semi-)public services like health, public transport, taxes and education are also performing poorly and/or very fragile after long periods of budget cuts and neoliberal policies.
- JumpinJack_Cash 4y ago
  > > massively funding the underworld because there's no legal supply If the underworld only crime is to sell weed then what's the problem? It's just a matter of semantics. I think what you mean is that it's defacto legal but you have to chit-chat with some guy or gal who'd also try to sell you some of his/her music or a club entrance when they are DJ-ing as opposed to just ordering it on Amazon The football ultras/hooligans phenomenon might also qualify as underworld but they mostly beat each others up
  - rtpg 4y ago
    The “problem” with this sort of stuff happening in a non legal way is that you end up in a space with no worker protections, no legal recourse, a lot of uncertainty that can lead to exploitation, etc etc etc Society existed that way for a long time but there’s a reason we stopped doing feudalism To your point not having everything enter the capitalist sphere is good, I think it’s possible to navigate one without the other
    - actionfromafar 4y ago
      The dark economy in the NL also now have enough cash at hand to bribe and threaten officials of all sorts.
      - 4y ago
lr4444lr 4y ago
Can you keep it? As I read 1.55 births per woman, with population growth probably fueled by low skilled immigrant labor. Yeah, you might educate them in time to maintain that high standard of living, you might not.
mrsuprawsm 4y ago
There are a decent amount of big tech jobs here. Uber/Meta/Amazon have a local presence, there are many other non-FAANG tech companies HQ'd here (Booking.com, Adyen), and some household names that also hire remotely or have some presence here.
tmnvdb 4y ago
Housing affordability is a problem at the moment.
zachrip 4y ago
I moved to the Netherlands when I found out that I am going blind. I really enjoy it here - it's very accessible which is my number one need; but with that accessibility comes a more peaceful and active lifestyle. I'm starting a family here and I've been very impressed all around about the process. It makes being a good parent much easier: parental leave, cheap birth, government takes care of things like vaccinations/baby checkups, parks are everywhere, and many dads take "papadag" on Wednesday off from work to spend time with their kids. I'm really happy to be here and I appreciate all of the benefits that come with it. I had to start a business to get a visa but despite all of that hard work it's still very worth it to me.
AdrianB1 4y ago
I have a relative that is an university professor of some social sciences in the Netherlands (not sure what is the exact title); she is very left-leaning, she attended college and doctoral degree in the US and she was a professor in US for more than 10 years and in the Netherlands for almost 15 years: even she is not that optimistic about the country. I had very long discussions in the past 10 years (we spend family vacations together) and she believes the Netherlands is better in many aspects than US, but there are areas where it is a lot worse. The most obvious ones: healthcare, quality of services and social relations (including large scale xenofobia, not so well hidden).
throw_pm23 4y ago
* Attitude towards food. In many workplaces, universities, schools, etc. a doughnut with some syrup and colored candy sprinkled on it, or a sad sandwich of a lettuce between two slices of bread is seen as an acceptable lunch. Compared to the Netherlands, the country of Germany or Nordic countries seem like the ultimate foodie-paradise, which tells it all. Perhaps dutch people consume all the good food for supper in the privacy of their homes, but this is invisible to the public. EDIT: "frikandel-automaat" -- that beast tells all you need to know about a country's attitude towards food. * Over-designed, over-controlled environment. If your idea of high quality of life is ultramodern office-buildings with no natural light offices, cities with every square foot either concrete or manicured lawn, buildings where you cannot open a window, and cannot water the plant because some central authority takes care of it, and every aspect of your life is efficiently managed, then go for it. I for one, need some unstructured "messiness" every now and then, otherwise I start to feel tense. * people are nice and open though, society seems to work pretty well, and companies are efficient. No unicorns? ASML makes the machines that make the machines that make semiconductors, the modern world runs on them.
- JumpinJack_Cash 4y ago
  > > no natural light What natural light? As I said weather is very gloomy there
- nodelessness 4y ago
  >>frikandel-automaat I was just inspired by FEBO listing themselves on UberEats. I thought if they could put themselves on UberEats, I can aspire to be anything in life.
olivier_martel 4y ago
You forgot a big one: Urban Planning.
user_7832 4y ago
> The Netherlands are in the top percentile of every quality of life metric except for weather. I’m not going to say it’s bad because on average it isn’t, but this is patently untrue. The Dutch housing market is one of the worst in the world, and doubly so if you don’t speak Dutch or are on a budget. Double whammy for international students. The healthcare system is... let me put it this way. As an Indian, I’d rather be in the Netherlands if there was a critical medical condition. You’re not actively suicidal or dying in the next 24 hours? Excellent, join the seven month waitlist for getting medical help. Or become suicidal enough to go to the ER, and then back to the waitlist you go! In India (and what I’ve seen/heard of UK/US private healthcare) you can get faster treatment if you can pay. Nothing of that sort here haha. (I should probably add that Germany and Belgium have similar issues from what I’ve heard, though that doesn’t excuse the Netherlands.)
- lm28469 4y ago
  > and doubly so if you don’t speak Dutch or are on a budget Like literally anywhere in the world, in the vast majority of country if you show up poor and not able to speak the language you won't find a place to live.
  - user_7832 4y ago
    Yeah but not really. In a lot of places if you can pay market rates landlords couldn’t care less about your language, especially if both of you are fluent in English. Important to note perhaps that this language thing is more for common/shared accommodations, not standalone units. Also by on a budget I mean a budget that’ll get me a very decent place even in for example Germany. The prices and costs of accommodation in the Netherlands is hilarious, ask anyone living here. One of my professors literally moved to Belgium to save on rent, despite needing to make a multi-hour journey when commuting multiple times a week.
    - lm28469 4y ago
      > In a lot of places if you can pay market rates landlords couldn’t care less about your language How will you sign a contract you can't read ? Outside of tech hubs you can't even find a job in western Europe (not even speaking about the rest of the world) if you don't speak the language, without a job you won't find a place to rent > Also by on a budget I mean a budget that’ll get me a very decent place even in for example Germany. Compared to which city ? https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Germany&country2=Netherlands&city1=Berlin&city2=Amsterdam&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Germany&country2=Netherlands&city1=Munich&city2=Amsterdam&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=France&country2=Netherlands&city1=Paris&city2=Amsterdam&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
sofixa 4y ago
I've heard relatively bad things about Dutch healthcare from people who have had to use it - basically the doctors will either give you vitamins, or antibiotics and operate, with little nuance inbetween. Maybe it was "foreign student/young person" bias though.
- mettamage 4y ago
  Dutch healthcare has many issues, also for non-foreigners.
- gattilorenz 4y ago
  If they prescribed antibiotics it’s either not true or the person was bordering septicaemia :)
emptyfile 4y ago
[dead]
asdff 4y ago
They have too many nimbys that make housing expensive and squander their transit infrastructure. places like zunderdorp or ransdorp or really that whole area outside the a10 in amsterdam are ripe opportunities for housing that is perfectly bikeable to a whole lot of transit, currently being used for agriculture like it has been for the last millenia, and at this rate will continue to be used for that for the next millenia. Then that leaves you with adding housing in town to match job growth demand, seems logical right? But you can't because of height limit ordinances prevent adding any meaningful housing supply even if you were allowed to take down a historic building. This leaves you with the inevitable end result we have today, of Amsterdam being one of the most expensive places to live in Europe.

ddorian43 4y ago

Programmer wages are pretty low compared to cost of living.

chaoz_ 4y ago
Rent is not cheap, but if you are okay with 1 hour commute you can live in the Hague, Leiden or Utrecht. Less tourists also. Btw, there are large companies in AMS (Booking, Amazon, Meta, Uber) and some financial shops. It's not comparable with US, but definitely in top3 in EMEA region.
- ddorian43 4y ago
  > Btw, there are large companies in AMS (Booking, Amazon, Meta, Uber) and some financial shops. It's not comparable with US, but definitely in top3 in EMEA region. Yes, only those big companies pay "ok" wages. To all others thinking "but free healthcare/whatever/etc", then why don't these companies pay enough (compared to USA,England) for remote where you only pay in gross?
  - asdff 4y ago
    "but free healthcare" is ridiculous too. I don't think people understand how cheap healthcare now is in the U.S.. I know people on ACA plans that cover health, dental, and vision, copays in line with what I pay, for about $75 a month (I think this is silver tier). Chances are you are taking a much bigger salary hit working in europe than $75 a month. I guess you can save on education, but that savings probably starts looking smaller too when you consider in state tuition rates, community college credit prices, or the fact most private colleges dish out full ride financial aid packages like candy to anyone making below a certain threshold.
- gield 4y ago
  Switzerland, France, Germany, Luxemburg, Spain. The Netherlands is definitely not in the top 3 of European tech wages vs cost of living.

dtech 4y ago

This is kind of an outdated notion. In the 90's NL was very progressive, but after 3 decades of conservative-neoliberal governments it's middling at most. E.g. selling weed to stores is still illegal - massively funding the underworld because there's no legal supply - which is quite backwards compared to Canada & some US states. Or up until a few years ago NL was dead-last in the EU for amount of parental leave a father gets (2 days), which was only changed when the EU forced them to by setting a minimum. Most (semi-)public services like health, public transport, taxes and education are also performing poorly and/or very fragile after long periods of budget cuts and neoliberal policies.

JumpinJack_Cash 4y ago
> > massively funding the underworld because there's no legal supply If the underworld only crime is to sell weed then what's the problem? It's just a matter of semantics. I think what you mean is that it's defacto legal but you have to chit-chat with some guy or gal who'd also try to sell you some of his/her music or a club entrance when they are DJ-ing as opposed to just ordering it on Amazon The football ultras/hooligans phenomenon might also qualify as underworld but they mostly beat each others up
- rtpg 4y ago
  The “problem” with this sort of stuff happening in a non legal way is that you end up in a space with no worker protections, no legal recourse, a lot of uncertainty that can lead to exploitation, etc etc etc Society existed that way for a long time but there’s a reason we stopped doing feudalism To your point not having everything enter the capitalist sphere is good, I think it’s possible to navigate one without the other
  - actionfromafar 4y ago
    The dark economy in the NL also now have enough cash at hand to bribe and threaten officials of all sorts.
    - 4y ago

lr4444lr 4y ago

Can you keep it? As I read 1.55 births per woman, with population growth probably fueled by low skilled immigrant labor. Yeah, you might educate them in time to maintain that high standard of living, you might not.

mrsuprawsm 4y ago

There are a decent amount of big tech jobs here. Uber/Meta/Amazon have a local presence, there are many other non-FAANG tech companies HQ'd here (Booking.com, Adyen), and some household names that also hire remotely or have some presence here.

tmnvdb 4y ago

Housing affordability is a problem at the moment.

zachrip 4y ago

I moved to the Netherlands when I found out that I am going blind. I really enjoy it here - it's very accessible which is my number one need; but with that accessibility comes a more peaceful and active lifestyle. I'm starting a family here and I've been very impressed all around about the process. It makes being a good parent much easier: parental leave, cheap birth, government takes care of things like vaccinations/baby checkups, parks are everywhere, and many dads take "papadag" on Wednesday off from work to spend time with their kids. I'm really happy to be here and I appreciate all of the benefits that come with it. I had to start a business to get a visa but despite all of that hard work it's still very worth it to me.

AdrianB1 4y ago

I have a relative that is an university professor of some social sciences in the Netherlands (not sure what is the exact title); she is very left-leaning, she attended college and doctoral degree in the US and she was a professor in US for more than 10 years and in the Netherlands for almost 15 years: even she is not that optimistic about the country. I had very long discussions in the past 10 years (we spend family vacations together) and she believes the Netherlands is better in many aspects than US, but there are areas where it is a lot worse. The most obvious ones: healthcare, quality of services and social relations (including large scale xenofobia, not so well hidden).

throw_pm23 4y ago

* Attitude towards food. In many workplaces, universities, schools, etc. a doughnut with some syrup and colored candy sprinkled on it, or a sad sandwich of a lettuce between two slices of bread is seen as an acceptable lunch. Compared to the Netherlands, the country of Germany or Nordic countries seem like the ultimate foodie-paradise, which tells it all. Perhaps dutch people consume all the good food for supper in the privacy of their homes, but this is invisible to the public. EDIT: "frikandel-automaat" -- that beast tells all you need to know about a country's attitude towards food. * Over-designed, over-controlled environment. If your idea of high quality of life is ultramodern office-buildings with no natural light offices, cities with every square foot either concrete or manicured lawn, buildings where you cannot open a window, and cannot water the plant because some central authority takes care of it, and every aspect of your life is efficiently managed, then go for it. I for one, need some unstructured "messiness" every now and then, otherwise I start to feel tense. * people are nice and open though, society seems to work pretty well, and companies are efficient. No unicorns? ASML makes the machines that make the machines that make semiconductors, the modern world runs on them.

JumpinJack_Cash 4y ago
> > no natural light What natural light? As I said weather is very gloomy there
nodelessness 4y ago
>>frikandel-automaat I was just inspired by FEBO listing themselves on UberEats. I thought if they could put themselves on UberEats, I can aspire to be anything in life.

olivier_martel 4y ago

You forgot a big one: Urban Planning.

user_7832 4y ago

> The Netherlands are in the top percentile of every quality of life metric except for weather. I’m not going to say it’s bad because on average it isn’t, but this is patently untrue. The Dutch housing market is one of the worst in the world, and doubly so if you don’t speak Dutch or are on a budget. Double whammy for international students. The healthcare system is... let me put it this way. As an Indian, I’d rather be in the Netherlands if there was a critical medical condition. You’re not actively suicidal or dying in the next 24 hours? Excellent, join the seven month waitlist for getting medical help. Or become suicidal enough to go to the ER, and then back to the waitlist you go! In India (and what I’ve seen/heard of UK/US private healthcare) you can get faster treatment if you can pay. Nothing of that sort here haha. (I should probably add that Germany and Belgium have similar issues from what I’ve heard, though that doesn’t excuse the Netherlands.)

lm28469 4y ago
> and doubly so if you don’t speak Dutch or are on a budget Like literally anywhere in the world, in the vast majority of country if you show up poor and not able to speak the language you won't find a place to live.
- user_7832 4y ago
  Yeah but not really. In a lot of places if you can pay market rates landlords couldn’t care less about your language, especially if both of you are fluent in English. Important to note perhaps that this language thing is more for common/shared accommodations, not standalone units. Also by on a budget I mean a budget that’ll get me a very decent place even in for example Germany. The prices and costs of accommodation in the Netherlands is hilarious, ask anyone living here. One of my professors literally moved to Belgium to save on rent, despite needing to make a multi-hour journey when commuting multiple times a week.
  - lm28469 4y ago
    > In a lot of places if you can pay market rates landlords couldn’t care less about your language How will you sign a contract you can't read ? Outside of tech hubs you can't even find a job in western Europe (not even speaking about the rest of the world) if you don't speak the language, without a job you won't find a place to rent > Also by on a budget I mean a budget that’ll get me a very decent place even in for example Germany. Compared to which city ? https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Germany&country2=Netherlands&city1=Berlin&city2=Amsterdam&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Germany&country2=Netherlands&city1=Munich&city2=Amsterdam&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=France&country2=Netherlands&city1=Paris&city2=Amsterdam&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

sofixa 4y ago

I've heard relatively bad things about Dutch healthcare from people who have had to use it - basically the doctors will either give you vitamins, or antibiotics and operate, with little nuance inbetween. Maybe it was "foreign student/young person" bias though.

mettamage 4y ago
Dutch healthcare has many issues, also for non-foreigners.
gattilorenz 4y ago
If they prescribed antibiotics it’s either not true or the person was bordering septicaemia :)

emptyfile 4y ago

[dead]

asdff 4y ago

They have too many nimbys that make housing expensive and squander their transit infrastructure. places like zunderdorp or ransdorp or really that whole area outside the a10 in amsterdam are ripe opportunities for housing that is perfectly bikeable to a whole lot of transit, currently being used for agriculture like it has been for the last millenia, and at this rate will continue to be used for that for the next millenia. Then that leaves you with adding housing in town to match job growth demand, seems logical right? But you can't because of height limit ordinances prevent adding any meaningful housing supply even if you were allowed to take down a historic building. This leaves you with the inevitable end result we have today, of Amsterdam being one of the most expensive places to live in Europe.