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Developer with ADHD? You’re not alone
- 1letterunixname 4y agoRoughly 30% of people I work with at a MAANG have moderate to severe ADHD. Real ADHD, not some self-diagnosed or casual self-deprecation.
- iLoveOncall 4y ago> Real ADHD, not some self-diagnosed or casual self-deprecation. How would you know? This number is totally unrealistic when the prevalence in the adult population is 2-4%. Unless you work with 3 people, one of which has ADHD.
- andybak 4y ago"Laughable" seems a little strong (as well as slightly rude). I certainly think it's plausible that there's certain sectors that see a prevalence well in excess of the general population. And there's enough variance between companies that some will be even higher. 30% does sound rather high but "laughable" implies the person you are replying to has stated something so far beyond that that mockery is the only appropriate response.
- iLoveOncall 4y agoI already changed to "totally unrealistic" before you commented, but yes, I believe that 30% when the prevalence is at 5% for high estimates is so far beyond reality that it can be laughed at.
- throwaway4aday 4y agoBy that measure it's totally unrealistic that the average height of NBA players is 6'6"
- iLoveOncall 4y agoNo, because being tall is a prime factor when hiring NBA players, but having ADHD is not when hiring software engineers.
- nibbleshifter 4y agoThe traits often looked for in software engineers when hiring can often bear a striking similarity to the traits an ADHD or autistic person may display.
- loudgas 4y agoBeing tall gives you an obvious advantage at basketball. As a result many tall people are drawn to pursuing a career in basketball. Could it be that ADHD gives you an advantage at the kind of tasks involved in software engineering, and that many people with ADHD are naturally drawn to this kind of work, even though the advantage is not so obvious as a physical characteristic like height?
- pcthrowaway 4y agoPerhaps ADHD people are more susceptible to the attention-hijacking effects of computers and software. So they decide they should go on to work with software since it keeps distracting them from everything else. Ironic that they end up building even more psychologically exploitative software that hijacks our attention
- dwaltrip 4y agoI don’t think this is the greatest counter example, as there are far fewer NBA players than big-tech engineers. Small groups can differ significantly from the population average more easily than large groups.
- spacephysics 4y agoWhile I agree questioning how he would know, we can’t use the general population metric and apply it to a specific population, in this case, software engineers who work at MAANG, or just competent enough to pass the interview I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a larger percent population of ADHD in MAANG tech vs in the general population. But to try and counter myself, there’s typically a larger population of ADHD (or it’s permutations) in trade jobs (though I argue programming is a trade skill, just a new breed in our digital age. Though I digress)
- nibbleshifter 4y agoI recently read a study that suggested around 30% of incarcerated individuals in the UK probably had ADHD or similar. Just for another fun data point.
- galangalalgol 4y agoThe current estimate is more like 10%. Some of that may be over diagnosis, but some of it always was, kids have energy, that makes adults tired. But the degree of increase far exceeds any such explanation. The podcasts I've heard lately seem to indicate links to all the normal suspects, gut biome, autoimmune, and some chemical we may now be exposed to. Probably some combination. Also, there are some jobs someone with ADHD will have a lot of trouble keeping. Jobs that benefit from hyperfocus are not among them. Many therapists will suggest careers like engineering, tech or writer (perhaps technical) for precisely that reason. So you would expect highly elevated rates of ADHD in those fields.
- nxpnsv 4y agoNBA players work in teams 100% great at shooting hoops, still the prevalence of that in the adult US population is tiny... what I am saying is that perhaps there is some selection effect happening here :)
- iLoveOncall 4y agoNBA players are hired for their ability to shoot hoops. Software engineers are not hired for having ADHD.
- nxpnsv 4y agoTrue, but not all selection biases are intentional
- bayesian_horse 4y agoOP may have sampled by asking. Or watched typical symptoms. Or seen medication. I myself do suspect people of having the condition without being a hundred percent certain they have it or know it themselves.
- nibbleshifter 4y agoTech work has a lot of weird selection biases that can lead to high concentrations of certain minority groups working in the sector: eg, people with autism, ADHD, etc.
- itsmemattchung 4y agoJust a couple days ago, my wife and I were having this same exact conversation. In fact, I wonder if big tech company — as dystopian as this sounds — tries to attract individuals that exhibit strong ADHD traits. Side note: I'm 34 years old and just 3 days ago, was evaluated by a psychiatrist and was diagnosed with adult ADHD.
- galleywest200 4y agoSide, side note: Congrats on taking the step and getting the diagnosis. From personal experience, it takes a few weeks but it really does feel like a light switch gets turned on after starting treatment.
- 1letterunixname 4y agoPerhaps it's high functioning because or with ADHD and/or easier to control people who feel more vulnerable.
- dijit 4y agoI have a pet theory that the role of old school sysadmins (what we refer to as DevOps today; yes Sysadmins coded, or the good ones did, I will die on this hill) was strangely attractive to those who would assuredly be diagnosed with ADHD. You have endless areas to noodle on solutions to avoid issues; you work hard to avoid working hard (strong ADHD trait) and interruptions are either fine and they fuel you completely: or you cannot work with interruptions at all. Anecdotally: I was a sysadmin (that coded) and I got pretty close to an ADHD diagnosis but was warned off of it by the Swedish health authority (I've talked about it before on HN; basically that my insurances would increase and it could affect mortgages, cannot hold certain vehicle licenses etc;).
- spacephysics 4y agoI wonder at what point is XYZ job within tech better for those with ADHD, or is especially challenging. I’ve made many stupid small mistakes where someone checks my code in review and finds a small error, or I forget to run the unit test suite (we don’t currently have an auto-testing pipeline) where it’s led me to question my career. On the other hand, what you describe fits very well with my experiences, endless tasks to do (especially in a “many hats” role), and working hard to avoid work. Side note: For how well the Swedish system works, I’m surprised that they can do that based on such diagnosis. Affect, mortgages? That’s insane. +1 to the states on that one.
- Version467 4y ago> I wonder at what point is XYZ job within tech better for those with ADHD, or is especially challenging. I have no data to back this up, but I'm pretty sure that this is entirely dependent on the work environment. If you have an encouraging environment that is flexible enough to compensate for the downsides of ADHD, than it can also take advantage of hyperfocus and flow states, radically unconventional solutions where creative thinking is needed or super fast context switching to go through a whole host of little problems in a short amount of time. If the environment instead caters to a very neurotypical way of thinking and does not (or cannot) have a lot of sympathy for people with ADHD than the difficult symptoms will be amplified, while the positives cannot be taken advantage of. I don't think it has a lot to do with the actual job at all.
- m3sh 4y ago[flagged]
- brianfryer 4y agoADHD-like symptoms are caused by a food allergy? What might be some common foods that would cause this?
- coldtea 4y ago"Some of the common foods that can cause ADHD reactions include milk, chocolate, soy, wheat, eggs, beans, corn, tomatoes, grapes, and oranges. If you suspect a food sensitivity may be contributing to your child's ADHD symptoms, talk to your ADHD dietitian or doctor about trying an elimination diet".
- spacephysics 4y agoI agree certain foods can attenuate symptoms (I’ve gone on a year plus long elimination diet eating only a handful of foods, which helped symptoms), there’s certainly a “lower level” component to it as well. After the diet I don’t magically become more skilled at visual reasoning (think that’s what it’s called), or able to recite a story from start to finish without jumping everywhere. I agree though that the worst of the symptoms can probably be mitigated at the least.
- bayesian_horse 4y agoI've heard and experienced that fasting or extreme ketogenic diets can help somewhat. Inflammatory foods probably don't help either. But it would be wrong to say that the opposite, high carbohydrates or sugar, high inflammatory or whatever is causing "ADHD". At best similar symptoms but that's what diagnostics are for...
- oo0shiny 4y agoDo you have a source for this? From everything I've researched, it's actually a chemical imbalance that affects the management of dopamine in the brain, making it hard to focus.
- jnovek 4y agoIn my experience: yes, programming often pairs well with ADHD because it’s an ongoing stream of novel problems to solve. That said, as we’ve injected more and more process into software development over the last decade or so I’ve found it harder and harder to engage. I respect its necessity but JIRA is nearly the opposite of the exploratory experience of programming.
- lampshades 4y agoI have an ADHD diagnosis and completely agree. The process has become soul crushing. If left to my own devices I would find plenty to do and I would enjoy it so so much more.
- galleywest200 4y agoAs a DevOps Engineer I often find myself writing code for personal projects on the "good screen" to the side of my "bad (work) screen". Maybe DevOps is just too boring for ADHD. You spend all day waiting for alarms.
- bayesian_horse 4y agoAlso: developing software is an activity of high enough value that employers may put up with all the downsides of having ADHS.
- owlninja 4y agoI know it's not true but lately it seems like I am alone in NOT having ADHD.
- kayodelycaon 4y agoSelection bias. You don’t hear from the people who don’t have problems. :)
- dorchadas 4y agoNot only that, but it seems like any time I mention struggling to focus on some task, I instantly get told, no, I do have ADHD and need to get tested for it. Like, no, I just don't want to sit here and correct these math equations my code couldn't copy right.
- navjack27 4y agoBe thankful you don't have issues with intention and intrinsic motivation. ADHD is not a focus problem it's a motivation problem for the people it severely dysfunctions. It's a inability to hold your tongue when you really really really really want to mouth off at someone. Focus is and should be the last thing down on the list if people want to even consider that they have ADHD. Executive dysfunction is a real problem and just be thankful you don't have it.
- japanman425 4y ago[dead]
- japanman425 4y ago[dead]
- annie_muss 4y agoI appreciate the article's efforts to raise awareness, that said, as a developer with ADHD I wish 'hyperfocus' wasn't always trotted out as a kind of ADHD superpower. The inability to control your attention in order to achieve complex tasks and effect desired outcomes is ADHD. So called 'hyperfocus' is just as likely to waste your time on something unrelated and unhelpful to what you want to do. It's like telling a sleepwalker "Hey, cheer up, sometimes you end up in the office and you can skip your commute!"
- Muromec 4y agoIn the long run all the unrelated stuff you wasted your time on before will add up as in-depth knowledge relevant to what you liok for now
- AnEro 4y agoYea but how useful is that if I can't control USING that information. The only way to control what I can focus on unless I loop in some way to get ALOT of dopamine out of it. It's an executive function DISABILITY, it takes so much work to get it close to useful where it just makes it so your basically on par with everyone after it.
- galleywest200 4y ago> Yea but how useful is that if I can't control USING that information. I have ADHD. I write down a ton of notes. I have a large, and growing, note-taking environment (Obsidian). After a while using features such as backlinks, etc, you begin to see just _how connected_ everything you know is. Interdisciplinary _is the way to work_, not in some narrow silo. I do not have a job I care about too much right now, so I am not focused at all on my day job. But I can focus for _hours_ writing code or doing some tinkering in a lab -- the goal is to get a job where I can do either of these...but that requires graduate school. I have "talk shop" level knowledge in what feels like 20 different domains. I tell people that I am a "jack of all trades but a master of none". A Blessing and a curse.
- ilovecaching 4y agoAnyone have tips for how they manage their ADHD, specifically when you aren't able to get yourself motivated at all with the task at hand or feel like you have too may balls to juggle? I really struggle with yak shaving and perfection being the enemy of good as well, my ADHD often devolves into OCD like behaviors.
- annie_muss 4y agoPomodoros (short timed bursts of activity with frequent breaks). If you are having trouble shorten the time until you are able to start. Describe the desired completed task to an imaginary third person. Poorly defined tasks can often make starting more difficult.
- user_7832 4y ago> Pomodoros (short timed bursts of activity with frequent breaks). If you are having trouble shorten the time until you are able to start. Describe the desired completed task to an imaginary third person. Poorly defined tasks can often make starting more difficult. Thanks! The 2nd point particularly makes a lot of sense.
- itsmemattchung 4y agoCheck out this podcast: https://www.hackingyouradhd.com/adhd-podcast-network https://www.hackingyouradhd.com/adhd-podcast-network Filled with tons of practical tips on managing your ADHD
- pornel 4y agoThere’s no magic solution to this, otherwise ADHD wouldn’t be a disorder. With too many things to juggle, you have to face the reality and drop some commitments, so you work only on the few things that you can manage without being overwhelmed. To get started, it helps to extract a small (10-20min) specific starting task from a big vague task. Just don’t split the whole project into too many pieces at once, because that may start looking like too much. And medication. Lots of people report that it really helps.
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
- Eumenes 4y agoinb4 SO starts prescribing ADHD meds
- nibbleshifter 4y agoThat would be far superior to the current option in many places where one has to to pay the shrink every month to renew, on top of paying for the prescription to be filled lol.
- mrangle 4y agoAlthough presently there is a strong institutional drive to disconnect nearly everything from IQ, the traditional medical dogma is that median IQ for ADHD individuals is lower than average. That's not to say that there aren't higher IQ individuals with ADHD. But if IQ skews lower, what explains the paradox between this traditional view and supposed ADHD concentration in STEM? My working theory is that ADHD-PI is actually an autism spectrum symptom and skews higher IQ. ADHD hyperactive is probably still clinically related to ADHD-PI, but I'd guess that the hyperactive expression is just enough outside of the spectrum to disconnect it from AS. And that the higher IQ related "symptom" is less likely to be present as well. Possibly due to a less overactive visual cortex: the increased visual processing theoretically being related to the daydreaming symptom of PI. And the attentional fatigue that triggers the daydreaming being related to ADHD-PI as well, in addition to the possibility of it being related to AS. Although I don't work in IT, I suspect that the presence of ADHD-PI skews higher than expected in comparison with the hyperactive expression.
- b7r6 4y agoI've been diagnosed with ADHD 4 times by 4 separate qualified clinicians and stimulant medication undoubtedly makes me more effective, so asked and answered I guess. But I sort of philosophically struggle with the "disorder" bit of it. I live in a box with a glass wall facing other boxes with glass walls and type into a computer screen any time that I'm not actively going to the gym or doing something outdoors becuase the default thing I do is try to create enough material prosperity to exist. This seems like something that would have a caveman climbing the walls, which is roughly how I feel about the glass box / computer screen routine when I'm not on ADHD medication. Is is "neurotypical" to be perfectly at ease spending hours hunched in front of a screen under artifical light in order to eat, or is it "neurotypical" to be fantasizing that the pool cue next to my monitor would fly pretty straight if a lion walked through the door?
- kayodelycaon 4y ago“Neurotypical” has to do with ability to function at a fundamental level. If neurotypical person is interested in something, they are likely to be fine doing that thing. But they can also chose not to do it. Someone with ADHD has trouble controlling attention. To be a disorder, this needs to be severe enough to limit you. There is a significant overlap in behavior with neurotypical and neurodivergent people. What separates them is what is driving that behavior.
- b7r6 4y agoI probably have some wiggle room on the details, but the combination of my skills, experience, and the macro economy make me roughly a "knowledge worker". I'm interested as hell in all kinds of things, but if I "choose" not to do the "knowledge worker" thing I'm looking at a tough situation pretty quickly. I'm sure you mean well by your comment but I'd be more interested in what you think about the broader theme of "knowledge work as a path to high achievement denominated in society's rewards" than whether or not I personally have a bunch of agency about wanting rewards.
- kayodelycaon 4y ago
- ghusto 4y ago_Super_ unpopular opinion; I think ADHD is largely a scam, as this guy claims: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/big-pharma-s-manufactured-epidemic-the-misdiagnosis-of-adhd/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/big-pharma-s-manu... People react very strongly to this view. I have a theory on why that is, but won't rile you up even further by posting it. I'm not trying to be controversial, but American pharmaceutical companies have started lobbying European countries governments to get kids diagnosed early with ADHD (as it is in America), and it's terrifying. Teachers are just letting it happen, because; surprise! little Timmy is so much better behaved now that he's on pills, and dealing with 30 kids is hard.
- amanaplanacanal 4y agoWhat the article says is that he thinks it is overdiagnosed, not that it is a scam. This may or may not be true, it's hard to tell. With ADHD, as with autism, there is likely a spectrum. And given that stimulant drugs show some benefits to almost everybody, where do you draw the line between "needs them to function normally" and "needs them to function optimally"?
- ghusto 4y agoOver-diagnosed, yup I'd agree with that, but I'd stick to my original "mostly a scam" statement. The pharmaceutical companies have taken a real disease, and spun it into a scam where they're pushing for wider and wider definitions for diagnosis. It's happening in Europe right now, but it's more apparent for those watching because we're not used to this frankly evil practice over here. And it is evil, because you're essentially getting kids as young as five hooked on speed.
- alanek2009 4y ago[dead]
- cc101 4y agoI was astounded by the popularity of the term ADHD on HN. There are 48,000 posts and over a million comments. If you want to verify this, use ADHD not adhd in your search.
- pcthrowaway 4y agoIt's where all of us ADHD programmers go to procrastinate while all the neurotypical folk are harnessing that attention on business-aligned things. It's like that post on blog options, and how a disproportionate number of blog posts are about setting up a blog.
- symlinkk 4y agoEveryone on here says they have ADHD so they can get access to Adderall which is sort of a cheat code for programming. Some people do this genuinely believing they’re suffering from some disorder, others do it knowing they would be fine without it but better with it.
- thebigspacefuck 4y agoImo stims aren’t really a cheat code to programming, ADHD itself is a cheat code to programming and stims help you with all the other stuff ADHD messes up for you.
- greengoo 4y agoI think many people do genuinely have ADHD and benefit from medication, but denying that Adderall abuse is rampant in Silicon Valley (which IMO is what whoever downvoted you is implicitly doing) is silly. This was even portrayed on the show Silicon Valley, and Scott Alexander (the slatestarcodex guy), who has written about Adderall at length, and confirmed its widespread use as a performance enhancer by those who don't have any legitimate medical need for it.
- greengoo 4y agoI don't see why this was downvoted as well; is it seriously controversial to suggest that a substantial number of people without ADHD are taking Adderall as a cognitive performance enhancer? https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-mo... >I didn’t realize how much of a psychiatrist’s time was spent gatekeeping Adderall. >The human brain wasn’t built for accounting or software engineering. A few lucky people can do these things ten hours a day, every day, with a smile. The rest of us start fidgeting and checking our cell phone somewhere around the thirty minute mark. I work near the financial district of a big city, so every day a new Senior Regional Manipulator Of Tiny Numbers comes in and tells me that his brain must be broken because he can’t sit still and manipulate tiny numbers as much as he wants. How come this is so hard for him, when all of his colleagues can work so diligently? The entire piece is worth reading.
- greengoo 4y ago>A perfect fit? >Many developers with ADHD feel their job is a perfect fit for how they think and approach problems. “Coding can give ADHD brains exactly the kind of stimulation they crave,” explains full-stack developer Abbey Perini. “Not only is coding a creative endeavor that involves constantly learning new things, but also once one problem is solved, there’s always a brand new one to try.” >In addition to a revolving door of fresh challenges that can keep people with ADHD engaged, coding can reward and encourage a state of hyperfocus: a frequently cited symptom of ADHD that developer Neil Peterson calls “a state of laser-like concentration in which distractions and even a sense of passing time seem to fade away.” It’s easy to draw parallels between hyperfocus and the flow state, a distraction-free groove in which programmers, writers, musicians, artists, and other creators produce their best work (occasionally while forgetting to eat). Our paid platform, Stack Overflow for Teams, is popular with developers in large part because it helps them avoid distraction and protect the productive sanctity of their flow state. How much of the "hyperfocus" is just from all of the Adderall these people are popping--both those with actual ADHD, and those just feigning it to get pills from their Dr to boost their productivity? If anything, it would seem like people with autism spectrum disorder, who can hyperfocus without popping pills, would be the perfect fit (and were seen as such 10-20 years ago). I actually wonder what % of SV SWEs (especially at FAANG) would lose their jobs, or wouldn't have gotten them to begin with, if Adderall didn't exist.
- Apfel 4y agoAs someone who was only diagnosed with ADHD in the past year or so, I can verify that hyperfocus absolutely existed pre-medication. If I was interested in something, I could work on it for whole weekends without any sense of time passing. I did get diagnosed in a bit of a panic after I lost my previous role due to ADHD symptoms.
- coldblues 4y agoAs someone with ADHD, sysadmin work is the most pleasant. I actually dislike programming most of the time. So many things I have to keep track of, and programming languages only get more and more abstract.