3 ms·

The legal requirement to act instantly on the automatic presumption of the claimants being both right and acting in good faith with no evidence required isn't r

The legal requirement to act instantly on the automatic presumption of the claimants being both right and acting in good faith with no evidence required isn't required to avoid liability. They could have required some higher standard of proof of ownership and as long as they followed the process, YouTube would have the same protection. The system is specifically designed to be gamed by claimants.

SideQuark 4y ago
It works the other way: it let's a site post user content without the user having to prove legal clearance for the content. Without this, there would be no sites allowing users to post nearly anything. In exchange for this freedom, the sites have to agree to some resolution format for when a copyright complaint is triggered. So the system is not designed to be gamed by claimants. It's designed to give legal protections to hosts of sites. But this is most definitely a carveout to protect sites. Without the law no one would face to liability of hosting user generated content.
- catiopatio 4y ago
  The DMCA was passed in 1998. You do realize we had a fully functioning internet filled with user-generated content before 1998, right?
  - SideQuark 4y ago
    Yet not one of the biggest sites with user content was formed before the DMCA. Why didn't any of those fully functioning internet user sites dominate? Certainly other, non-user content sites from then were big. Its almost as if providing safe harbor allowed such sites to grow......
    - Oxidation 4y ago
      With as much evidence, one can say that it's almost as if the creation of the Department of Homeland Security in 2002 allowed it. Geocities, say, was huge before the DMCA and died after it.
      - SideQuark 4y ago
        Geocities had ~1.8M users in Dec 1997. They were often sued for copyright (e.g., here[1]) infringement since then providers were liable. This made it harder for them to raise money, since as copyright holders became more saavy about what companies were doing on the internet, they were increasingly targeting them. After DMCA when those suits were gone, they raised $$$, became much more valuable, grew, and soon got bought by Yahoo. They went from the 5th most visited to 3rd, even with much more competition. They grew the user base. The same thing happened to Tripod and Angelfire from that time. Instead of trying to cherry pick one example, look at all companies before and after. That is the accurate way to see what happened. If you think the safe harbor content protection did not and does not matter, look how hard current companies are pushing to keep Congress from removing such laws. [1] https://washingtontechnology.com/1996/11/publishers-push-piracy-plan-on-providers/334487/ https://washingtontechnology.com/1996/11/publishers-push-pir...
        Oxidation 4y ago
        None of that automatically means a safe harbor provision can only exist if claimants are able to make obviously bogus claims without redress, though, which is what the original point was before or was derailed into a false dichotomy of having any safe harbor vs not. Either the DMCA is defective in that regard, or it's a deliberate feature. Either way, it's open for abuse.
  - dangrossman 4y ago
    You don't know your history. The DMCA was passed in 1998 with the express purpose of saving that fully functioning internet, as BBS systems and ISPs were being held liable for vicarious copyright infringement and contributory copyright infringement, making the business of operating an ISP legally and financially untenable. There was a realistic danger that no business would continue operating a public ISP under the existing legal framework after notable cases like Playboy Enterprises Inc v Frena. ISPs lobbied legislators in the 104th Congress (1995-96) for legislation that would preserve the open internet by shielding them from that liability for users' actions, and this lobbying directly resulted in the Online Copyright Infringement Liability Limitation Act (aka Safe Harbor) getting written into the DMCA.
    - catiopatio 4y ago
      > The DMCA was passed in 1998 with the express purpose of saving that fully functioning internet Given this blatantly incorrect reframing of the DMCA as anything other than being intended to serve the copyright lobby’s interests, it’s hard to believe you’re arguing in good faith.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
- Oxidation 4y ago
  It's not necessarily true that a system that requires a claimant to demonstrate ownership also requires a user to pre-emptively prove it. You could have a law that provides a safe harbor provision but also requires claims to be honest and backed-up to "some" level of confidence. The law as it stands does appear to have the possibility of the penalty of perjury for intentional misuse, but, apparently, a comma means that apparently this is actually only applicable to a small part of the claim[1], and as far as I know has never done so. I do not know if this is because the law doesn't make definitions clear enough to demonstrate bad-faith in court (including that comma), or the legal system in general simply doesn't care to enforce the law. [1]: https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/51541/has-anyone-been-convicted-of-perjury-for-false-dmca-takedown-notices https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/51541/has-anyone-bee...

SideQuark 4y ago

It works the other way: it let's a site post user content without the user having to prove legal clearance for the content. Without this, there would be no sites allowing users to post nearly anything. In exchange for this freedom, the sites have to agree to some resolution format for when a copyright complaint is triggered. So the system is not designed to be gamed by claimants. It's designed to give legal protections to hosts of sites. But this is most definitely a carveout to protect sites. Without the law no one would face to liability of hosting user generated content.

catiopatio 4y ago
The DMCA was passed in 1998. You do realize we had a fully functioning internet filled with user-generated content before 1998, right?
- SideQuark 4y ago
  Yet not one of the biggest sites with user content was formed before the DMCA. Why didn't any of those fully functioning internet user sites dominate? Certainly other, non-user content sites from then were big. Its almost as if providing safe harbor allowed such sites to grow......
  - Oxidation 4y ago
    With as much evidence, one can say that it's almost as if the creation of the Department of Homeland Security in 2002 allowed it. Geocities, say, was huge before the DMCA and died after it.
    - SideQuark 4y ago
      Geocities had ~1.8M users in Dec 1997. They were often sued for copyright (e.g., here[1]) infringement since then providers were liable. This made it harder for them to raise money, since as copyright holders became more saavy about what companies were doing on the internet, they were increasingly targeting them. After DMCA when those suits were gone, they raised $$$, became much more valuable, grew, and soon got bought by Yahoo. They went from the 5th most visited to 3rd, even with much more competition. They grew the user base. The same thing happened to Tripod and Angelfire from that time. Instead of trying to cherry pick one example, look at all companies before and after. That is the accurate way to see what happened. If you think the safe harbor content protection did not and does not matter, look how hard current companies are pushing to keep Congress from removing such laws. [1] https://washingtontechnology.com/1996/11/publishers-push-piracy-plan-on-providers/334487/ https://washingtontechnology.com/1996/11/publishers-push-pir...
      - Oxidation 4y ago
        None of that automatically means a safe harbor provision can only exist if claimants are able to make obviously bogus claims without redress, though, which is what the original point was before or was derailed into a false dichotomy of having any safe harbor vs not. Either the DMCA is defective in that regard, or it's a deliberate feature. Either way, it's open for abuse.
- dangrossman 4y ago
  You don't know your history. The DMCA was passed in 1998 with the express purpose of saving that fully functioning internet, as BBS systems and ISPs were being held liable for vicarious copyright infringement and contributory copyright infringement, making the business of operating an ISP legally and financially untenable. There was a realistic danger that no business would continue operating a public ISP under the existing legal framework after notable cases like Playboy Enterprises Inc v Frena. ISPs lobbied legislators in the 104th Congress (1995-96) for legislation that would preserve the open internet by shielding them from that liability for users' actions, and this lobbying directly resulted in the Online Copyright Infringement Liability Limitation Act (aka Safe Harbor) getting written into the DMCA.
  - catiopatio 4y ago
    > The DMCA was passed in 1998 with the express purpose of saving that fully functioning internet Given this blatantly incorrect reframing of the DMCA as anything other than being intended to serve the copyright lobby’s interests, it’s hard to believe you’re arguing in good faith.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
Oxidation 4y ago
It's not necessarily true that a system that requires a claimant to demonstrate ownership also requires a user to pre-emptively prove it. You could have a law that provides a safe harbor provision but also requires claims to be honest and backed-up to "some" level of confidence. The law as it stands does appear to have the possibility of the penalty of perjury for intentional misuse, but, apparently, a comma means that apparently this is actually only applicable to a small part of the claim[1], and as far as I know has never done so. I do not know if this is because the law doesn't make definitions clear enough to demonstrate bad-faith in court (including that comma), or the legal system in general simply doesn't care to enforce the law. [1]: https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/51541/has-anyone-been-convicted-of-perjury-for-false-dmca-takedown-notices https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/51541/has-anyone-bee...