5 ms·

I don't think this is going to 'revolutionise' anything really. It is just another friction point and part to fail or need maintenance. It is an attempt for Shi

I don't think this is going to 'revolutionise' anything really. It is just another friction point and part to fail or need maintenance. It is an attempt for Shimano to look relevant. I have the wireless electronic sram shifting on my 1x Lauf. It is kind of expensive, but amazing and worth the simplicity of it all. It just works and shifts perfectly every time. I could never go back to cables. The revolution will be to figure out ways to make this same electronic shifting technology less expensive so that it can be installed on every non-e-bike out there.

sasawpg 4y ago
I’ve have/had mech SRAM, mech Shimano, SRAM Red AXS eTap and the new Ultegra Di2. Well maintained (change cables every couple years), mech just works too and has crisp shifting. While I love electronic and won’t go back to mech on some of my bikes, mech has its place. It has not left me stranded with a dead battery and it hasn’t entered crash mode during a cross race. Mech also won’t brick a $1000 derailleur after a firmware upgrade (it magically came back to life 2 months later, after I had bought a replacement). I do agree with your first point, I don’t see much revolutionary here.
- latchkey 4y ago
  > It has not left me stranded Not much different than a mech cable snapping or the derailleur not being adjusted correctly by a tiny set screw and the chain ending up in your spokes. Shit has catastrophic failures... that's never going to stop being a problem.
  - sasawpg 4y ago
    Mech cable snapping vs forgetting to charge the battery? Yes, end user error with the battery, but I’ve had exactly 0 cables snap and I put my bikes through hell.
    - latchkey 4y ago
      I've had a cable snap in a race.
      - sasawpg 4y ago
        I just watched a NorCal video where guy had to spend all race in little ring because it snapped at the start line. Ouch!
        wmitty 4y ago
        As long as you have access to a phillips screwdriver, you aren't stuck in the little ring - you can tighten the high limit screw to pick your one gear (at least from the higher ones).
        sasawpg 4y ago
        (Replying to wmitty) it happened to him at the start line. His choice was between DNS or little ring.
  - skeeter2020 4y ago
    I've never had a rear derailleur cable "snap"; they stretch, fray and may eventually break right at the pinch point but these are either slow delays with obvious warnings or easily fixed on the trail. Compared to a connectivity or battery issue? They don't have nearly as high of likelyhood.
    - sasawpg 4y ago
      I’ve seen cable breaks happen, though not frequently. I’ve also seen chains break a lot more frequently, I know of 5-6 instances where it happened last year alone locally. All of these were a result of complete lack of maintenance as you point out, though I suppose it would be possible for a newer component to not show signs of wear and still fail.
- Steltek 4y ago
  Electronic shifting is everything I don't want on a bike. - Another battery to recharge - Proprietary battery format making replacements difficult - Needing an app to make simple adjustments. Hopefully it runs and is still compatible after 10+ years of ownership! Bike components are wonders of precision machining and modern materials but conceptually, they have a beautiful simplicity. Not to get too "give up programming for woodworking" but all of that goes flying out the window the moment you add a proprietary wireless protocol and closed hardware in the middle of it.
  - sasawpg 4y ago
    Index adjustment on SRAM AXS can be done on the fly from the shifters. Or from the app as you ride without stopping. Try that with cables. The battery replacement is the real issue as technology gets older. Though to be honest, at some stage it gets more difficult to find parts for any system. I started to run into challenges sourcing several replacement parts for a 8-9 year old bike that had 10 speed Shimano group set, so it got sold and replaced. Batteries are not much different really.
    - runamok 4y ago
      Barrel adjusters near the controls are a thing though not all bikes have them. Example: https://www.amazon.com/Jagwire-Inline-Indexed-Tension-Adjusters/dp/B01NAPALH6 https://www.amazon.com/Jagwire-Inline-Indexed-Tension-Adjust...
    - jjav 4y ago
      > I started to run into challenges sourcing several replacement parts for a 8-9 year old bike that had 10 speed Shimano group set I can't say I've had any problems with getting maintenance parts for my 2004 (19 years old) Shimano XTR mountain bike.
  - latchkey 4y ago
    I haven't opened the app since I got the bike... about 2 years ago. You don't need the app to make adjustments... I also haven't made any adjustments in 2 years, so there is that too.
m463 4y ago
I like shimano. I have an early di2 and loved the perfect shifting. But I have always wondered why wireless is even a thing - it just seems like a way to spread out batteries everywhere and allow signal variability to creep in.
- justinator 4y ago
  People like clean cockpits, and threading cables and wires through the headset is a PITA if you ever need to adjust the stem, handlebars, fork, etc.
  - latchkey 4y ago
    That's exactly it. I have two "cables" on my bike now and that is it... for the disc brakes. It is super clean and simple. The batteries in the levers last a long time since they are just used for a button press. They are worth it. Never had an issue with signal or shifting.
justinator 4y ago
Can you expand on your idea of why you think Shimano doesn't look relevant now? Not to play favorites, but they seem to be the biggest manufacturer of high-end bike parts in the world. On road, every World Tour team, save 3 are running Shimano. Campagnolo seems the company that's becoming irrelevant, with SRAM being second, but doing some interesting stuff. In my experience, jockey pulleys don't add too much friction, as they're not under a great amount of force and don't fail all that often - for the same reasons. It's the derailleur arm itself that's very likely to take damage from abuse (by bending out of spec). I would say the use of a clutch on a rear derailleur - something your SRAM 1x most certainly has, leaks more watts (tho v. v. little) - the compromise is certainly worth is, especially for the gear cluster spread you're running on the back. This design looks just to be an improvement of some sort of clutch system, with purpose to try and move the derailleur arm out from being so low, where lovely things like rocks can hit it. That seems like a win to me, given my own assessment of how these things become worthless paperweights. SRAM actually seems to be all-in on making rear derailleur replaceable in piecemeal, which seems to be a nice improvement over the design, in a very Right To Repair kinda way. https://bikerumor.com/next-gen-sram-eagle-direct-mount-derailleur-is-modular-to-save-the-planet-your-wallet/ https://bikerumor.com/next-gen-sram-eagle-direct-mount-derai... I'm not sure why such a design can't be run wireless if that's your preference. Looking at Shimano's offerings, even the 105 is electric these days. But again: this is just a patent for an idea - it's not the first time Shimano has done this obviously https://www.bike198.com/shimano-gearbox-patent/ https://www.bike198.com/shimano-gearbox-patent/
- latchkey 4y ago
  I mean relevancy in the abstract sense by the way. It is trying to solve a problem that nobody really has, by adding an additional component to the system. It also makes your chain a tad bit longer... added weight and links. > Can you expand on your idea of why you think Shimano doesn't look relevant now? ... On road, every World Tour team, save 3 are running Shimano. They all use electronic shifting. This is not the way to compare relevancy, given that it is a sponsorship. Next year, sram comes out with a better financial deal for the team than shimano and they go with them.
  - 4y ago
thefz 4y ago
Battery-powered anything on a bike is a fad that will pass.
- latchkey 4y ago
  DI2 came out in 2001. How many years do you think this 'fad' will last?
  - thefz 4y ago
    How's market adoption?
    - latchkey 4y ago
      A question with a question that's easy enough to google? Come on. https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/bicycle-gearbox-system-market-2023-2027-use-of-electronic-gear-shifting-in-bicycles-to-fuel-the-market-growth-as-the-leading-trend--technavio-301726820.html https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/bicycle-gearbox-sys... Still growing at a nice rate and every single pro team has been using it for years now. All I see now around where I live, which is heavily bike centric, are e-bikes...
    - simooooo 4y ago
      I’m not sure that is the correct metric to look at. As it is a very very high end product.
      - thefz 4y ago
        Precisely. If it was a truly innovative, no-brainer upgrade like dropper seatsposts, you would find almost one every recent-ish bike. I have seen one (1) live so far. And it was a ultra high end road bike. For the same reason, what the pros do on their rigs is no concern for the 99.9% of mountain bikers. I wouldn't bring anything I can't repair or troubleshoot directly out in the mountains, let alone anything that can discharge and not work anymore.
lrhegeba 4y ago
in the short run this system might make sense for some use cases, the future it is not. chainless systems will take over for e-bikes, e.g. https://www.schaeffler-industrial-drives.com/en/news_media/press_releases/press_releases_detail.jsp?id=87716736 https://www.schaeffler-industrial-drives.com/en/news_media/p... First used here: https://www.golem.de/news/free-drive-schaeffler-baut-kettenlosen-antrieb-fuer-e-lastenraeder-2302-172019.html https://www.golem.de/news/free-drive-schaeffler-baut-kettenl... (german only, sorry). 250W is low, so there needs to happen some development for more use case.
xmonkee 4y ago
You cannot complain about points of failure and praise electronic shifting in the same breath. I have a bike with downtube friction shifters and 2x8 gearing on an old deore group. Its liberating.
rasz 4y ago
>figure out ways to make this same electronic shifting technology less expensive so that it can be installed on every non-e-bike out there. But why bother when ebikes are already cheaper? BAFANG motor with battery conversion kit is 2/3 of the cheapest SRAM kit available($1.2).
- latchkey 4y ago
  There are plenty of people who don't want e-bikes, but want electronic shifting. People who race bikes are a great example. The whole bi/triathlon industry. Given that electronic shifting is still $1.2k, it would be nice to lower that cost a bit so that all price points can participate more easily.

sasawpg 4y ago

I’ve have/had mech SRAM, mech Shimano, SRAM Red AXS eTap and the new Ultegra Di2. Well maintained (change cables every couple years), mech just works too and has crisp shifting. While I love electronic and won’t go back to mech on some of my bikes, mech has its place. It has not left me stranded with a dead battery and it hasn’t entered crash mode during a cross race. Mech also won’t brick a $1000 derailleur after a firmware upgrade (it magically came back to life 2 months later, after I had bought a replacement). I do agree with your first point, I don’t see much revolutionary here.

latchkey 4y ago
> It has not left me stranded Not much different than a mech cable snapping or the derailleur not being adjusted correctly by a tiny set screw and the chain ending up in your spokes. Shit has catastrophic failures... that's never going to stop being a problem.
- sasawpg 4y ago
  Mech cable snapping vs forgetting to charge the battery? Yes, end user error with the battery, but I’ve had exactly 0 cables snap and I put my bikes through hell.
  - latchkey 4y ago
    I've had a cable snap in a race.
    - sasawpg 4y ago
      I just watched a NorCal video where guy had to spend all race in little ring because it snapped at the start line. Ouch!
      - wmitty 4y ago
        As long as you have access to a phillips screwdriver, you aren't stuck in the little ring - you can tighten the high limit screw to pick your one gear (at least from the higher ones).
      - sasawpg 4y ago
        (Replying to wmitty) it happened to him at the start line. His choice was between DNS or little ring.
- skeeter2020 4y ago
  I've never had a rear derailleur cable "snap"; they stretch, fray and may eventually break right at the pinch point but these are either slow delays with obvious warnings or easily fixed on the trail. Compared to a connectivity or battery issue? They don't have nearly as high of likelyhood.
  - sasawpg 4y ago
    I’ve seen cable breaks happen, though not frequently. I’ve also seen chains break a lot more frequently, I know of 5-6 instances where it happened last year alone locally. All of these were a result of complete lack of maintenance as you point out, though I suppose it would be possible for a newer component to not show signs of wear and still fail.
Steltek 4y ago
Electronic shifting is everything I don't want on a bike. - Another battery to recharge - Proprietary battery format making replacements difficult - Needing an app to make simple adjustments. Hopefully it runs and is still compatible after 10+ years of ownership! Bike components are wonders of precision machining and modern materials but conceptually, they have a beautiful simplicity. Not to get too "give up programming for woodworking" but all of that goes flying out the window the moment you add a proprietary wireless protocol and closed hardware in the middle of it.
- sasawpg 4y ago
  Index adjustment on SRAM AXS can be done on the fly from the shifters. Or from the app as you ride without stopping. Try that with cables. The battery replacement is the real issue as technology gets older. Though to be honest, at some stage it gets more difficult to find parts for any system. I started to run into challenges sourcing several replacement parts for a 8-9 year old bike that had 10 speed Shimano group set, so it got sold and replaced. Batteries are not much different really.
  - runamok 4y ago
    Barrel adjusters near the controls are a thing though not all bikes have them. Example: https://www.amazon.com/Jagwire-Inline-Indexed-Tension-Adjusters/dp/B01NAPALH6 https://www.amazon.com/Jagwire-Inline-Indexed-Tension-Adjust...
  - jjav 4y ago
    > I started to run into challenges sourcing several replacement parts for a 8-9 year old bike that had 10 speed Shimano group set I can't say I've had any problems with getting maintenance parts for my 2004 (19 years old) Shimano XTR mountain bike.
- latchkey 4y ago
  I haven't opened the app since I got the bike... about 2 years ago. You don't need the app to make adjustments... I also haven't made any adjustments in 2 years, so there is that too.

m463 4y ago

I like shimano. I have an early di2 and loved the perfect shifting. But I have always wondered why wireless is even a thing - it just seems like a way to spread out batteries everywhere and allow signal variability to creep in.

justinator 4y ago
People like clean cockpits, and threading cables and wires through the headset is a PITA if you ever need to adjust the stem, handlebars, fork, etc.
- latchkey 4y ago
  That's exactly it. I have two "cables" on my bike now and that is it... for the disc brakes. It is super clean and simple. The batteries in the levers last a long time since they are just used for a button press. They are worth it. Never had an issue with signal or shifting.

justinator 4y ago

Can you expand on your idea of why you think Shimano doesn't look relevant now? Not to play favorites, but they seem to be the biggest manufacturer of high-end bike parts in the world. On road, every World Tour team, save 3 are running Shimano. Campagnolo seems the company that's becoming irrelevant, with SRAM being second, but doing some interesting stuff. In my experience, jockey pulleys don't add too much friction, as they're not under a great amount of force and don't fail all that often - for the same reasons. It's the derailleur arm itself that's very likely to take damage from abuse (by bending out of spec). I would say the use of a clutch on a rear derailleur - something your SRAM 1x most certainly has, leaks more watts (tho v. v. little) - the compromise is certainly worth is, especially for the gear cluster spread you're running on the back. This design looks just to be an improvement of some sort of clutch system, with purpose to try and move the derailleur arm out from being so low, where lovely things like rocks can hit it. That seems like a win to me, given my own assessment of how these things become worthless paperweights. SRAM actually seems to be all-in on making rear derailleur replaceable in piecemeal, which seems to be a nice improvement over the design, in a very Right To Repair kinda way. https://bikerumor.com/next-gen-sram-eagle-direct-mount-derailleur-is-modular-to-save-the-planet-your-wallet/ https://bikerumor.com/next-gen-sram-eagle-direct-mount-derai... I'm not sure why such a design can't be run wireless if that's your preference. Looking at Shimano's offerings, even the 105 is electric these days. But again: this is just a patent for an idea - it's not the first time Shimano has done this obviously https://www.bike198.com/shimano-gearbox-patent/ https://www.bike198.com/shimano-gearbox-patent/

latchkey 4y ago
I mean relevancy in the abstract sense by the way. It is trying to solve a problem that nobody really has, by adding an additional component to the system. It also makes your chain a tad bit longer... added weight and links. > Can you expand on your idea of why you think Shimano doesn't look relevant now? ... On road, every World Tour team, save 3 are running Shimano. They all use electronic shifting. This is not the way to compare relevancy, given that it is a sponsorship. Next year, sram comes out with a better financial deal for the team than shimano and they go with them.
- 4y ago

thefz 4y ago

Battery-powered anything on a bike is a fad that will pass.

latchkey 4y ago
DI2 came out in 2001. How many years do you think this 'fad' will last?
- thefz 4y ago
  How's market adoption?
  - latchkey 4y ago
    A question with a question that's easy enough to google? Come on. https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/bicycle-gearbox-system-market-2023-2027-use-of-electronic-gear-shifting-in-bicycles-to-fuel-the-market-growth-as-the-leading-trend--technavio-301726820.html https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/bicycle-gearbox-sys... Still growing at a nice rate and every single pro team has been using it for years now. All I see now around where I live, which is heavily bike centric, are e-bikes...
  - simooooo 4y ago
    I’m not sure that is the correct metric to look at. As it is a very very high end product.
    - thefz 4y ago
      Precisely. If it was a truly innovative, no-brainer upgrade like dropper seatsposts, you would find almost one every recent-ish bike. I have seen one (1) live so far. And it was a ultra high end road bike. For the same reason, what the pros do on their rigs is no concern for the 99.9% of mountain bikers. I wouldn't bring anything I can't repair or troubleshoot directly out in the mountains, let alone anything that can discharge and not work anymore.

lrhegeba 4y ago

in the short run this system might make sense for some use cases, the future it is not. chainless systems will take over for e-bikes, e.g. https://www.schaeffler-industrial-drives.com/en/news_media/press_releases/press_releases_detail.jsp?id=87716736 https://www.schaeffler-industrial-drives.com/en/news_media/p... First used here: https://www.golem.de/news/free-drive-schaeffler-baut-kettenlosen-antrieb-fuer-e-lastenraeder-2302-172019.html https://www.golem.de/news/free-drive-schaeffler-baut-kettenl... (german only, sorry). 250W is low, so there needs to happen some development for more use case.

xmonkee 4y ago

You cannot complain about points of failure and praise electronic shifting in the same breath. I have a bike with downtube friction shifters and 2x8 gearing on an old deore group. Its liberating.

rasz 4y ago

>figure out ways to make this same electronic shifting technology less expensive so that it can be installed on every non-e-bike out there. But why bother when ebikes are already cheaper? BAFANG motor with battery conversion kit is 2/3 of the cheapest SRAM kit available($1.2).

latchkey 4y ago
There are plenty of people who don't want e-bikes, but want electronic shifting. People who race bikes are a great example. The whole bi/triathlon industry. Given that electronic shifting is still $1.2k, it would be nice to lower that cost a bit so that all price points can participate more easily.