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The odd part is that these bad takes seem to typically come from people that don't even live the EU, and don't understand how it works. They just don't like th

The odd part is that these bad takes seem to typically come from people that don't even live the EU, and don't understand how it works. They just don't like that it exists.

lokar 4y ago
[flagged]
- generalizations 4y ago
  > Most of them will grow out of it eventually. On the other hand, condescension is harder to grow out of.
  - alright_scowl 4y ago
    You're right, they will never grow out of it.
    - briantakita 4y ago
      Pot, meet kettle...seriously though, I don't think many people are inclined to "grow out of" advocating for their own self interests by giving up their freedoms to the state/bureaucracy. As long as there are power dynamics, those on the lower rungs will dare to annoy those on the higher rungs by sticking up for themselves...and vice versa Perhaps you meant "they will eventually sell their soul" instead?
      - alright_scowl 4y ago
        Are you implying I gave up freedoms to state/bureaucracy? Which freedoms did I give up, exactly?
        briantakita 4y ago
        [flagged]
        alright_scowl 4y ago
        > There are many concerns about giving a centralized authority more power > Also, since the EU is a vassal of Pax Americana So the problem is giving a centralized authority (EU) more power. At the same time the EU is a vassal of the US (Pax America, which is a fairly ridiculous notion in and of itself). I can only conclude from the horrible word salad you gave me that individual member states without the EU would also be vassals of the US, which is itself a centralized power. So the EU existence, following your logic, is inconsequential. Your thoughts were mildly entertaining to parse through. Sorry for not giving credence to your thoughts beyond mere entertainment however.
        ClumsyPilot 4y ago
        > So the problem is giving a centralized authority (EU) more power. At the same time the EU is a vassal of the US Yeah, cognitive dissonance is strong with this one
        briantakita 4y ago
        > EU is a vassal of the US (Pax America, which is a fairly ridiculous notion in and of itself). You don't believe me? Perhaps Pax Americana needs to blow up another one of Europe's oil pipelines to remind you... I wonder how long the sycophantic politicians can keep up the act before the freezing & unemployed citizens notice. Here's a word of advice though, don't give the Nazis too many weapons. It may end up in a bad situation. They may hate Putin today, but tomorrow their prerogatives may change...
        nerdbert 4y ago
        > Perhaps Pax Americana needs to blow up another one of Europe's oil pipelines Does "pax" in Freedom Latin mean the same thing that it does in traditional Latin?
- zzzeek 4y ago
  > Extreme individualism and libertarianism is an extremely seductive ideology. Its simplicity and self-justification is very appealing to many HN posters. yes! > Most of them will grow out of it eventually. not if PG has his way
BurningFrog 4y ago
The EU is a major world power, like the US and China, which means everyone in the world will have opinions about them, of every level of informedness :) The US is used to this. The EU still have to adjust.
permo-w 4y ago
is that odd? it doesn’t seem surprising to me that Americans would think USA good EU bad
- alright_scowl 4y ago
  Forgive me for not taking their opinion about an economic block that they don't seem to understand and that their country doesn't belong to very seriously.
  - drstewart 4y ago
    Funny cause Europeans always think their opinions of the US should be taken very seriously, and they have a lot of them
    - alright_scowl 4y ago
      Funny, do they? I don't participate in threads about the US and its policies, so I wouldn't be able to tell.
      - bryanrasmussen 4y ago
        Well, as someone who has lived in various parts of the U.S (mainly Utah, Oregon and Northern California), as well as Germany, Denmark, and is married to an Italian: Germans, Danes, and Italians often have a lot of cursorily formed opinions of the U.S, while in the U.S if people have strong opinions about the EU (and not actual familiarity) they are often not just wrong or stupid but also just as often completely unhinged from reality. I'm guessing this is due to stupidity manifesting in different ways in their respective regions.
        Oxidation 4y ago
        > completely unhinged from reality Like apparently the UK bring a knife-ridden crime epicentre, when the knife-crime rate is, while unacceptably high, actually rather lower than the US, and that's before you consider guns which are about 10 times more on top of that. (And let's please at least pretend that the UK is still in the EU for argument's sake :)
988747 4y ago
I live in the EU, understand how it works, and that's why I hate it, and I want my country out of it ASAP :)
- alright_scowl 4y ago
  I think the benefits far outweigh the downsides. To be frank, I think a big chunk of its problems is that it is not integrated enough. Then again, my perspective is from someone not originally from Europe, that chose to migrate here and declined job offers from the US even though I would receive considerably more money had I accepted. I have zero regrets, by the way. So take my opinion as one without the social nuance from someone born here.
  - panick21_ 4y ago
    I think many of the benefits could be achieved with better methods, other then putting a French style barley democratic bureaucracy on top of all existing democracies. The reality is also that almost non of the people in the countries were actually asked if they wanted to join. There is a difference between being pro European integration and pro existing EU structure.
    - kazen44 4y ago
      how where people not asked if they wanted to join? mind you, European integration is a major political pillar in national politics of basically all countries inside of europe and its periphery. People vote on parties based on there political program, and most people seem to want to vast economic benefits being a member states brings. (heck, ukraine is basically fighting a war at the moment about an issue which basically boils down to European integration). People definetly had a say if they wanted EU membership through the political process of there country. The only case where this is a bit of a grey area is of the founding countries of the precursor of the EU. (european community of coal and steel). Most of those measures got passed as policy without a lot of democratic process by the populance. But we cannot change the past, and considering the state of most of europe during the 1950's i wouldn't judge them so harshly for it.

The odd part is that these bad takes seem to typically come from people that don't even live the EU, and don't understand how it works. They just don't like that it exists.

lokar 4y ago

[flagged]

generalizations 4y ago
> Most of them will grow out of it eventually. On the other hand, condescension is harder to grow out of.
- alright_scowl 4y ago
  You're right, they will never grow out of it.
  - briantakita 4y ago
    Pot, meet kettle...seriously though, I don't think many people are inclined to "grow out of" advocating for their own self interests by giving up their freedoms to the state/bureaucracy. As long as there are power dynamics, those on the lower rungs will dare to annoy those on the higher rungs by sticking up for themselves...and vice versa Perhaps you meant "they will eventually sell their soul" instead?
    - alright_scowl 4y ago
      Are you implying I gave up freedoms to state/bureaucracy? Which freedoms did I give up, exactly?
      - briantakita 4y ago
        [flagged]
        alright_scowl 4y ago
        > There are many concerns about giving a centralized authority more power > Also, since the EU is a vassal of Pax Americana So the problem is giving a centralized authority (EU) more power. At the same time the EU is a vassal of the US (Pax America, which is a fairly ridiculous notion in and of itself). I can only conclude from the horrible word salad you gave me that individual member states without the EU would also be vassals of the US, which is itself a centralized power. So the EU existence, following your logic, is inconsequential. Your thoughts were mildly entertaining to parse through. Sorry for not giving credence to your thoughts beyond mere entertainment however.
        ClumsyPilot 4y ago
        > So the problem is giving a centralized authority (EU) more power. At the same time the EU is a vassal of the US Yeah, cognitive dissonance is strong with this one
        briantakita 4y ago
        > EU is a vassal of the US (Pax America, which is a fairly ridiculous notion in and of itself). You don't believe me? Perhaps Pax Americana needs to blow up another one of Europe's oil pipelines to remind you... I wonder how long the sycophantic politicians can keep up the act before the freezing & unemployed citizens notice. Here's a word of advice though, don't give the Nazis too many weapons. It may end up in a bad situation. They may hate Putin today, but tomorrow their prerogatives may change...
        nerdbert 4y ago
        > Perhaps Pax Americana needs to blow up another one of Europe's oil pipelines Does "pax" in Freedom Latin mean the same thing that it does in traditional Latin?
zzzeek 4y ago
> Extreme individualism and libertarianism is an extremely seductive ideology. Its simplicity and self-justification is very appealing to many HN posters. yes! > Most of them will grow out of it eventually. not if PG has his way

BurningFrog 4y ago

The EU is a major world power, like the US and China, which means everyone in the world will have opinions about them, of every level of informedness :) The US is used to this. The EU still have to adjust.

permo-w 4y ago

is that odd? it doesn’t seem surprising to me that Americans would think USA good EU bad

alright_scowl 4y ago
Forgive me for not taking their opinion about an economic block that they don't seem to understand and that their country doesn't belong to very seriously.
- drstewart 4y ago
  Funny cause Europeans always think their opinions of the US should be taken very seriously, and they have a lot of them
  - alright_scowl 4y ago
    Funny, do they? I don't participate in threads about the US and its policies, so I wouldn't be able to tell.
    - bryanrasmussen 4y ago
      Well, as someone who has lived in various parts of the U.S (mainly Utah, Oregon and Northern California), as well as Germany, Denmark, and is married to an Italian: Germans, Danes, and Italians often have a lot of cursorily formed opinions of the U.S, while in the U.S if people have strong opinions about the EU (and not actual familiarity) they are often not just wrong or stupid but also just as often completely unhinged from reality. I'm guessing this is due to stupidity manifesting in different ways in their respective regions.
      - Oxidation 4y ago
        > completely unhinged from reality Like apparently the UK bring a knife-ridden crime epicentre, when the knife-crime rate is, while unacceptably high, actually rather lower than the US, and that's before you consider guns which are about 10 times more on top of that. (And let's please at least pretend that the UK is still in the EU for argument's sake :)

988747 4y ago

I live in the EU, understand how it works, and that's why I hate it, and I want my country out of it ASAP :)

alright_scowl 4y ago
I think the benefits far outweigh the downsides. To be frank, I think a big chunk of its problems is that it is not integrated enough. Then again, my perspective is from someone not originally from Europe, that chose to migrate here and declined job offers from the US even though I would receive considerably more money had I accepted. I have zero regrets, by the way. So take my opinion as one without the social nuance from someone born here.
- panick21_ 4y ago
  I think many of the benefits could be achieved with better methods, other then putting a French style barley democratic bureaucracy on top of all existing democracies. The reality is also that almost non of the people in the countries were actually asked if they wanted to join. There is a difference between being pro European integration and pro existing EU structure.
  - kazen44 4y ago
    how where people not asked if they wanted to join? mind you, European integration is a major political pillar in national politics of basically all countries inside of europe and its periphery. People vote on parties based on there political program, and most people seem to want to vast economic benefits being a member states brings. (heck, ukraine is basically fighting a war at the moment about an issue which basically boils down to European integration). People definetly had a say if they wanted EU membership through the political process of there country. The only case where this is a bit of a grey area is of the founding countries of the precursor of the EU. (european community of coal and steel). Most of those measures got passed as policy without a lot of democratic process by the populance. But we cannot change the past, and considering the state of most of europe during the 1950's i wouldn't judge them so harshly for it.