3 ms·

I see many comments about the cost of an iPad - that is not the real issue here. The real issue is these textbooks and knowledge will be funneled through DRM,

I see many comments about the cost of an iPad - that is not the real issue here. The real issue is these textbooks and knowledge will be funneled through DRM, and a single provider (Apple). Even if Apple gave away the iPads, I will still have issues with DRM on textbooks. And even if these books end up being DRM-free, will they still be proprietary to Apple's platforms? If most/all schools adopt this and require it, and the books are DRM hindered to a proprietary platform, then that means that it will become a defacto requirement for every student to own an Apple device, in order to receive education. It may work, and would certainly be good for Apple... but I don't like it.

masklinn 15y ago
School could very well distribute DRM-less texbooks (iBooks works as a regular eBooks reader, and I expect the ibooks 2 format is just EPUB3 with a few extensions), though I really doubt publishers will ever be on board with the idea. The DRM would also be added by the ibookstore, so you should be able to get a non-DRM'd ebook out of the author application thing: a commenter noted he'd exported an ibook, changed the extension and had no trouble loading it into a non-apple ebook reader (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3485150 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3485150)
- palebluedot 15y ago
  Yes, I agree - Many public schools charge a 'book fee' each year, for textbooks. Just roll it into that - who cares if the textbooks are shared then, because each student is paying for it, regardless. And if it is in a non-proprietary format, that would alleviate the other concern of lock-in. But one article mentioned that students could not resell the books - which implies DRM. Outside of high school and into college, the publishers obviously want to prevent reselling/sharing of the books.
  - cwe 15y ago
    This has been the biggest problem with ebooks in general in my mind. Kindle books are DRM'ed, I couldn't sell them once I'm done with them, which keeps me buying physical books. So I see it as the problem that really needs to be figured out (and is why I was hopeful for bitcoin at one point, it seemed to have a DRM system that allowed for transfer of ownership). Apologies if this is slightly off topic.
    - masklinn 15y ago
      > Kindle books are DRM'ed, I couldn't sell them once I'm done with them You couldn't really sell them either if they weren't DRM'd: who'd buy a C-c C-v for a used "digital book"? DRM could actually enable resale (or some sort of renting), if the DRM schemes supported it: buying a DRM'd book for $15 gives you a license to its content, reselling to the publisher revokes your license and lets you get some money back, and you can transfer the license to an other owner for a subset of the original price (with the publisher taking a cut of the trade for incentive). Let's say a textbook is $15, you could resell it to the publisher for $7, or "trade" it for say $9 (with the publisher taking $1 or $2 on top). Now here comes the rub: what's in it for for-profit publishers, especially publicly owned ones? Nothing, instead of selling two licenses they've now sold half a license, or a license and a fraction of one. Why would they bother unless they're forced to? I'd rather have better-priced ebooks to start with. > which keeps me buying physical books Only works if 1. you want to resell them (I've yet to re-sell one of my books, couldn't care less about resale value) and 2. you lose less by reselling it than the price of the ebook (pretty likely considering you can often get the bloody physical book for less than the ebook in the first place).
  - jonhendry 15y ago
    Until college, I never owned my textbooks, and they had to be returned to the school.
shmerl 15y ago
The problem is not only DRM, but lock in into Apple. Using iTunes is not acceptable, it's not interoperable.
- jonhendry 15y ago
  I doubt many K-12 kids care. And it's not like they get much flexibility in other areas of their educations. Anyway, now that iPads are usable without iTunes or a computer at all, I don't see how iTunes is relevant.
  - shmerl 15y ago
    What if someone doesn't want to use iPad? You can't make one tablet type mandatory to read a textbook. That's ridiculous. The problem is two fold here. Apple pushes lock in on authors and schools, which causes students lock in. It's a vicious cycle. Therefore I don't really get what is so exciting about it.
    - jonhendry 15y ago
      "You can't make one tablet type mandatory to read a textbook." As opposed to making one physical textbook mandatory to read a textbook?
      - shmerl 15y ago
        Accessing physical textbook can't be mandatory, since you can get it in a number of ways (buy it, go to the library, borrow from your friend etc.). DRM locked in ebook is much worse. You are forced to get iTunes/Apple device to access it.
        ceejayoz 15y ago
        > You are forced to get iTunes/Apple device to access it. Or go to the library and check one out (some schools in my area are already allowing this with laptops and iPads), or borrow your friend's.
palebluedot 15y ago
Interesting that I am receiving downvotes for this comment (although there seem to be some upvotes as well). It isn't a bash against Apple - I would have the same concerns if it was Amazon or Google, if there was DRM and/or device lock-in. And I think ebooks could be very good for students - however, limiting it with DRM and device lock-in is not how it should be done.
- shmerl 15y ago
  Do you think someone here really considers vendor lock in a positive thing?
  - palebluedot 15y ago
    No, but I think some may be indifferent to it.
    - shmerl 15y ago
      Doesn't seem indifferent to me. Looks more like cognitive dissonance, when people just pretend that something they don't like to accept doesn't exist. And when you point out the exact problem they only get more upset.
nirvana 15y ago
I didn't see anywhere an indication that Apple wouldn't support open, non-DRM ebooks. They do now. If you want to build a publishing business making textbooks without DRM, Apple will be happy to support you. Distribute however you want. If you want to make them free on the iBookstore without DRM, Apple will likely support you. When I went to college, the text books were a proprietary system with built in DRM. The professors and the text publishers had deals, involving kickbacks I'm sure, and professors were known to demand that you used the current Edition (which was really no better, and often worse than the previous). They enforced this by asking questions that involved answers that were different in different editions or that weren't covered in previous editions. Further, all the books had physical DRM. The glue they were bound with and the cardboard the covers was made out of was designed to disintegrate over the course of a semester, even with good care. I kept my books on a shelf next to my desk in my dorm and never took them to class, and still couldn't sell them at the end of the semester because they'd fallen apart. Once again, Apple's taking a proprietary industry that is used to charging high prices and trying to democratize it and bring prices down. Apple did this successfully with the music industry before getting them to give up on DRM. This is a good forward step with the textbook industry. Plus by definition if you create software which supports new features you have lock-in. Apple supports the ePub 2 standard. Apple is as interoperable as they can be. Its amazon that created a proprietary ebook standard. Apple's evolving the standard forward, but I've not seen anything to indicate that these aren't just ePub 3 books.
- palebluedot 15y ago
  Further, all the books had physical DRM. The glue they were bound with and the cardboard the covers was made out of was designed to disintegrate over the course of a semester, even with good care. I kept my books on a shelf next to my desk in my dorm and never took them to class, and still couldn't sell them at the end of the semester because they'd fallen apart. That is not DRM. That is shoddy craftsmanship, poor quality, etc. But it is not DRM. DRM specifically limits your rights - Digital Rights Management - with regard to the content. Plus by definition if you create software which supports new features you have lock-in. Not necessarily, if it is an open standard - and if it is an open ePub 3 standard, then that is great. However, if it is DRM inhibited, then it is enforced lock-in. However, interoperability is key, so it needs to be both an open platform, and DRM-free. And it would be disingenuous to argue that the book format is an open standard, if it has non-open DRM locking it down. The DRM becomes part of the book, and cannot be separated from the standard, at that point. I am not arguing that the college textbook industry does not need reform, or is not prohibitively expensive. It does, and it is. I am arguing against DRM in textbooks, and device lock-in.
epistasis 15y ago
Schools (and corporations) have embraced lock-in from Microsoft and Oracle with open arms, for both longer lock-in time periods, and for greater investment amounts. It's a problem there too, but this is a much smaller problem than locking into Exchange for the next 5 years.

masklinn 15y ago

School could very well distribute DRM-less texbooks (iBooks works as a regular eBooks reader, and I expect the ibooks 2 format is just EPUB3 with a few extensions), though I really doubt publishers will ever be on board with the idea. The DRM would also be added by the ibookstore, so you should be able to get a non-DRM'd ebook out of the author application thing: a commenter noted he'd exported an ibook, changed the extension and had no trouble loading it into a non-apple ebook reader (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3485150 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3485150)

palebluedot 15y ago
Yes, I agree - Many public schools charge a 'book fee' each year, for textbooks. Just roll it into that - who cares if the textbooks are shared then, because each student is paying for it, regardless. And if it is in a non-proprietary format, that would alleviate the other concern of lock-in. But one article mentioned that students could not resell the books - which implies DRM. Outside of high school and into college, the publishers obviously want to prevent reselling/sharing of the books.
- cwe 15y ago
  This has been the biggest problem with ebooks in general in my mind. Kindle books are DRM'ed, I couldn't sell them once I'm done with them, which keeps me buying physical books. So I see it as the problem that really needs to be figured out (and is why I was hopeful for bitcoin at one point, it seemed to have a DRM system that allowed for transfer of ownership). Apologies if this is slightly off topic.
  - masklinn 15y ago
    > Kindle books are DRM'ed, I couldn't sell them once I'm done with them You couldn't really sell them either if they weren't DRM'd: who'd buy a C-c C-v for a used "digital book"? DRM could actually enable resale (or some sort of renting), if the DRM schemes supported it: buying a DRM'd book for $15 gives you a license to its content, reselling to the publisher revokes your license and lets you get some money back, and you can transfer the license to an other owner for a subset of the original price (with the publisher taking a cut of the trade for incentive). Let's say a textbook is $15, you could resell it to the publisher for $7, or "trade" it for say $9 (with the publisher taking $1 or $2 on top). Now here comes the rub: what's in it for for-profit publishers, especially publicly owned ones? Nothing, instead of selling two licenses they've now sold half a license, or a license and a fraction of one. Why would they bother unless they're forced to? I'd rather have better-priced ebooks to start with. > which keeps me buying physical books Only works if 1. you want to resell them (I've yet to re-sell one of my books, couldn't care less about resale value) and 2. you lose less by reselling it than the price of the ebook (pretty likely considering you can often get the bloody physical book for less than the ebook in the first place).
- jonhendry 15y ago
  Until college, I never owned my textbooks, and they had to be returned to the school.

shmerl 15y ago

The problem is not only DRM, but lock in into Apple. Using iTunes is not acceptable, it's not interoperable.

jonhendry 15y ago
I doubt many K-12 kids care. And it's not like they get much flexibility in other areas of their educations. Anyway, now that iPads are usable without iTunes or a computer at all, I don't see how iTunes is relevant.
- shmerl 15y ago
  What if someone doesn't want to use iPad? You can't make one tablet type mandatory to read a textbook. That's ridiculous. The problem is two fold here. Apple pushes lock in on authors and schools, which causes students lock in. It's a vicious cycle. Therefore I don't really get what is so exciting about it.
  - jonhendry 15y ago
    "You can't make one tablet type mandatory to read a textbook." As opposed to making one physical textbook mandatory to read a textbook?
    - shmerl 15y ago
      Accessing physical textbook can't be mandatory, since you can get it in a number of ways (buy it, go to the library, borrow from your friend etc.). DRM locked in ebook is much worse. You are forced to get iTunes/Apple device to access it.
      - ceejayoz 15y ago
        > You are forced to get iTunes/Apple device to access it. Or go to the library and check one out (some schools in my area are already allowing this with laptops and iPads), or borrow your friend's.

palebluedot 15y ago

Interesting that I am receiving downvotes for this comment (although there seem to be some upvotes as well). It isn't a bash against Apple - I would have the same concerns if it was Amazon or Google, if there was DRM and/or device lock-in. And I think ebooks could be very good for students - however, limiting it with DRM and device lock-in is not how it should be done.

shmerl 15y ago
Do you think someone here really considers vendor lock in a positive thing?
- palebluedot 15y ago
  No, but I think some may be indifferent to it.
  - shmerl 15y ago
    Doesn't seem indifferent to me. Looks more like cognitive dissonance, when people just pretend that something they don't like to accept doesn't exist. And when you point out the exact problem they only get more upset.

nirvana 15y ago

I didn't see anywhere an indication that Apple wouldn't support open, non-DRM ebooks. They do now. If you want to build a publishing business making textbooks without DRM, Apple will be happy to support you. Distribute however you want. If you want to make them free on the iBookstore without DRM, Apple will likely support you. When I went to college, the text books were a proprietary system with built in DRM. The professors and the text publishers had deals, involving kickbacks I'm sure, and professors were known to demand that you used the current Edition (which was really no better, and often worse than the previous). They enforced this by asking questions that involved answers that were different in different editions or that weren't covered in previous editions. Further, all the books had physical DRM. The glue they were bound with and the cardboard the covers was made out of was designed to disintegrate over the course of a semester, even with good care. I kept my books on a shelf next to my desk in my dorm and never took them to class, and still couldn't sell them at the end of the semester because they'd fallen apart. Once again, Apple's taking a proprietary industry that is used to charging high prices and trying to democratize it and bring prices down. Apple did this successfully with the music industry before getting them to give up on DRM. This is a good forward step with the textbook industry. Plus by definition if you create software which supports new features you have lock-in. Apple supports the ePub 2 standard. Apple is as interoperable as they can be. Its amazon that created a proprietary ebook standard. Apple's evolving the standard forward, but I've not seen anything to indicate that these aren't just ePub 3 books.

palebluedot 15y ago
Further, all the books had physical DRM. The glue they were bound with and the cardboard the covers was made out of was designed to disintegrate over the course of a semester, even with good care. I kept my books on a shelf next to my desk in my dorm and never took them to class, and still couldn't sell them at the end of the semester because they'd fallen apart. That is not DRM. That is shoddy craftsmanship, poor quality, etc. But it is not DRM. DRM specifically limits your rights - Digital Rights Management - with regard to the content. Plus by definition if you create software which supports new features you have lock-in. Not necessarily, if it is an open standard - and if it is an open ePub 3 standard, then that is great. However, if it is DRM inhibited, then it is enforced lock-in. However, interoperability is key, so it needs to be both an open platform, and DRM-free. And it would be disingenuous to argue that the book format is an open standard, if it has non-open DRM locking it down. The DRM becomes part of the book, and cannot be separated from the standard, at that point. I am not arguing that the college textbook industry does not need reform, or is not prohibitively expensive. It does, and it is. I am arguing against DRM in textbooks, and device lock-in.

epistasis 15y ago

Schools (and corporations) have embraced lock-in from Microsoft and Oracle with open arms, for both longer lock-in time periods, and for greater investment amounts. It's a problem there too, but this is a much smaller problem than locking into Exchange for the next 5 years.