17 ms·

> and if it wasn't for a few outliers in Scandinavia and the Baltics, it would be negligible I agree that Estonia is doing great and a role model in many ways,

> and if it wasn't for a few outliers in Scandinavia and the Baltics, it would be negligible I agree that Estonia is doing great and a role model in many ways, but the by far biggest EU software company is still German: SAP Also, have a look at the very successful ELISE AI initiative: https://www.elise-ai.eu/ https://www.elise-ai.eu/

inglor_cz 4y ago
SAP is also 51 years old. There is no shortage of big, old companies in Germany. There is a visible shortage of successful young companies. In my comment edit, I mentioned the 20 year limit specifically, because the ossification in last decades is real. The US generates a lot more startups, even the London scene is livelier than the rest of Europe taken together.
- _19qg 4y ago
  There are roughly 1500 mid-sized companies in Germany which are among the world-leaders in their tech sector. You may never have heard it, but Elon Musk runs his factories with process automation from Germany (he bought a company) and robots from Kuka/Germany. Germany alone has roughly half of all so-called hidden-champions world-wide. Many of them are in High-tech. Europe lacks the large internet and software companies. Though T-Mobile is German and known in the US. SAP provides the software which runs large enterprises. But high-tech is much more, it's factory automation, it's aerospace (think Airbus), it's biotech (think Biontech), ... Soft- and hardware are a crucial factor for those.
  - inglor_cz 4y ago
    The Mittelstand is pretty much the only reason why Germany's prosperity is still a thing. Countries like Italy and Spain, which lack this backbone of mid-sized companies, are in deep trouble and unlikely to get out of it. But there were times when German companies actually were world leaders in the big things as well, not just reliable suppliers to foreign big players. Don't you count this as a regression?
    - lispm 4y ago
      > But there were times when German companies actually were world leaders in the big things as well We have the world leader in civil aerospace in France/Germany, Many high-speed trains in the world are coming from France or Germany. There are many large high-tech sectors. It's nice that Estonia is successful, but it's not where the next big chip manufacturing sites will be build. Intel and TSMC are in talks to move to the former East Germany (Saxony has roughly 70000 employees already in the chip manufacturing industry). The big Internet exchange node is in Frankfurt. The EU has a lot to catch up in many countries, but it's not that we have no high-tech.
      - peterfirefly 4y ago
        I love trains -- but planes are usually a better solution than high-speed trains. They will be an even better solution when we have small electric jets, especially for inter-European flights. Do you think the first practical electric jet will come from a subsidized EU development plan -- or from a VP funded US company?
        lispm 4y ago
        > but planes are usually a better solution than high-speed trains I was traveling this week with both, an Airbus from Lufthansa and high-speed trains from Siemens.
        peterfirefly 4y ago
        And which one was taxed and which one was subsidized?
        lispm 4y ago
        Both? Good and broad infrastructure is expensive. I was using a new plane with onboard Internet, two modern airports, three modern high-speed trains, three large train stations, driving through a clean and nice landscape. My local train line in my home town is fully digitalized and prepared for autonomous trains. Plus I made a stop in a town where Carl Friedrich Gauß was born in 1777, which was inspiring.
bigDinosaur 4y ago
SAP legitimately seems to be to be one of the least innovative software companies out there. Are they doing anything even mildly interesting? And it's not like they've found some global optimum - they just benefit from having been around so long that trillions of dollars now depend on them. Not due to any other merit though.

inglor_cz 4y ago

SAP is also 51 years old. There is no shortage of big, old companies in Germany. There is a visible shortage of successful young companies. In my comment edit, I mentioned the 20 year limit specifically, because the ossification in last decades is real. The US generates a lot more startups, even the London scene is livelier than the rest of Europe taken together.

_19qg 4y ago
There are roughly 1500 mid-sized companies in Germany which are among the world-leaders in their tech sector. You may never have heard it, but Elon Musk runs his factories with process automation from Germany (he bought a company) and robots from Kuka/Germany. Germany alone has roughly half of all so-called hidden-champions world-wide. Many of them are in High-tech. Europe lacks the large internet and software companies. Though T-Mobile is German and known in the US. SAP provides the software which runs large enterprises. But high-tech is much more, it's factory automation, it's aerospace (think Airbus), it's biotech (think Biontech), ... Soft- and hardware are a crucial factor for those.
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  The Mittelstand is pretty much the only reason why Germany's prosperity is still a thing. Countries like Italy and Spain, which lack this backbone of mid-sized companies, are in deep trouble and unlikely to get out of it. But there were times when German companies actually were world leaders in the big things as well, not just reliable suppliers to foreign big players. Don't you count this as a regression?
  - lispm 4y ago
    > But there were times when German companies actually were world leaders in the big things as well We have the world leader in civil aerospace in France/Germany, Many high-speed trains in the world are coming from France or Germany. There are many large high-tech sectors. It's nice that Estonia is successful, but it's not where the next big chip manufacturing sites will be build. Intel and TSMC are in talks to move to the former East Germany (Saxony has roughly 70000 employees already in the chip manufacturing industry). The big Internet exchange node is in Frankfurt. The EU has a lot to catch up in many countries, but it's not that we have no high-tech.
    - peterfirefly 4y ago
      I love trains -- but planes are usually a better solution than high-speed trains. They will be an even better solution when we have small electric jets, especially for inter-European flights. Do you think the first practical electric jet will come from a subsidized EU development plan -- or from a VP funded US company?
      - lispm 4y ago
        > but planes are usually a better solution than high-speed trains I was traveling this week with both, an Airbus from Lufthansa and high-speed trains from Siemens.
        peterfirefly 4y ago
        And which one was taxed and which one was subsidized?
        lispm 4y ago
        Both? Good and broad infrastructure is expensive. I was using a new plane with onboard Internet, two modern airports, three modern high-speed trains, three large train stations, driving through a clean and nice landscape. My local train line in my home town is fully digitalized and prepared for autonomous trains. Plus I made a stop in a town where Carl Friedrich Gauß was born in 1777, which was inspiring.

bigDinosaur 4y ago

SAP legitimately seems to be to be one of the least innovative software companies out there. Are they doing anything even mildly interesting? And it's not like they've found some global optimum - they just benefit from having been around so long that trillions of dollars now depend on them. Not due to any other merit though.