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> In those 12000 years, there's times we have have "made it" past resource shortage, but there's also times it has all come burning down. We don't always find w

> In those 12000 years, there's times we have have "made it" past resource shortage, but there's also times it has all come burning down. We don't always find ways past problems. Peak tin is a conspiracy theory, and everyone who worries about the Sea Peoples is a warmongering racist.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> everyone who worries about the Sea Peoples is a warmongering racist If the climate and seismic disasters which appear to have displaced the Sea Peoples hadn’t happened, isn’t it plausible that peak tin wouldn’t have happened? There was plenty of tin on Iberia and the British Isles.
- aylmao 4y ago
  They did happen though. I don't think the cause of the issue (running out, displacement, war, etc) matters. The point that we sometimes just don't manage to figure things out and keep things from crashing down.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > sometimes just don't manage to figure things out and keep things from crashing down Scarcity of tin didn’t cause the Bronze Age collapse. Take a household spending frivolously, and then buried in an earthquake. It would be odd to use their example when arguing for responsible fiscal practise: that wasn’t the cause of their demise. Peak tin didn’t happen because a separate factor did in civilisation before it became a problem.
    - aylmao 4y ago
      Yes and no. The decline in the supply of tin is thought to be an important part of the "domino effect" that led to the collapse. These were great civilizations that are thought could've managed issues related of mass immigration and/or invasion, but with weakened economies this wasn't so much the case. > Ironically, the interconnectedness that had strengthened these Bronze Age kingdoms may have hastened their downfall. Once trade routes for tin and copper were disrupted and cities began to fall, Cline says it had a domino effect that resulted in a widespread “system collapse.” [1] But you're right, scarcity of tin alone couldn't have caused such widespread system failure, and it itself was caused by other factors. Overall though, the wider point I was trying to make is that things can go wrong, and we can't always figure out how to solve them. [1]: https://www.history.com/news/bronze-age-collapse-causes https://www.history.com/news/bronze-age-collapse-causes
      - pfdietz 4y ago
        I found Cline's theory intensely irritating. He throws together everything, calls it "systems collapse", and ends up with something that's untestably complex. It's more a throwing up of hands in defeat than it is a useful explanation. In contrast, Robert Drews' theory is much simpler, and therefore more testable. Even if it's too simple, that's a good thing! His theory is that there was a realization that infantry, properly organized and even with bronze weapons, beat chariotry, and as this realization spread the existing civilizations became indefensible and collapsed. Only two survived (Egypt and Assyria) because they managed to adapt in time with their own infantry. (For some reason, Cline ignores this theory, not even mentioning it to refute it. I find this peculiar.)

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> everyone who worries about the Sea Peoples is a warmongering racist If the climate and seismic disasters which appear to have displaced the Sea Peoples hadn’t happened, isn’t it plausible that peak tin wouldn’t have happened? There was plenty of tin on Iberia and the British Isles.

aylmao 4y ago
They did happen though. I don't think the cause of the issue (running out, displacement, war, etc) matters. The point that we sometimes just don't manage to figure things out and keep things from crashing down.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > sometimes just don't manage to figure things out and keep things from crashing down Scarcity of tin didn’t cause the Bronze Age collapse. Take a household spending frivolously, and then buried in an earthquake. It would be odd to use their example when arguing for responsible fiscal practise: that wasn’t the cause of their demise. Peak tin didn’t happen because a separate factor did in civilisation before it became a problem.
  - aylmao 4y ago
    Yes and no. The decline in the supply of tin is thought to be an important part of the "domino effect" that led to the collapse. These were great civilizations that are thought could've managed issues related of mass immigration and/or invasion, but with weakened economies this wasn't so much the case. > Ironically, the interconnectedness that had strengthened these Bronze Age kingdoms may have hastened their downfall. Once trade routes for tin and copper were disrupted and cities began to fall, Cline says it had a domino effect that resulted in a widespread “system collapse.” [1] But you're right, scarcity of tin alone couldn't have caused such widespread system failure, and it itself was caused by other factors. Overall though, the wider point I was trying to make is that things can go wrong, and we can't always figure out how to solve them. [1]: https://www.history.com/news/bronze-age-collapse-causes https://www.history.com/news/bronze-age-collapse-causes
    - pfdietz 4y ago
      I found Cline's theory intensely irritating. He throws together everything, calls it "systems collapse", and ends up with something that's untestably complex. It's more a throwing up of hands in defeat than it is a useful explanation. In contrast, Robert Drews' theory is much simpler, and therefore more testable. Even if it's too simple, that's a good thing! His theory is that there was a realization that infantry, properly organized and even with bronze weapons, beat chariotry, and as this realization spread the existing civilizations became indefensible and collapsed. Only two survived (Egypt and Assyria) because they managed to adapt in time with their own infantry. (For some reason, Cline ignores this theory, not even mentioning it to refute it. I find this peculiar.)