4 ms·

Another example of confusing mean and median. The CDC is reporting the mean waist size. But the article talks about the “average man” and “most men” wouldn’t fi

Another example of confusing mean and median. The CDC is reporting the mean waist size. But the article talks about the “average man” and “most men” wouldn’t fit. That is the median. Waist may be normal distribution like height which means they are close. But I think the distribution may be unbalanced with limit on low weight but none on high.

benatkin 4y ago
I don't see an issue. The headline says average and that normally means mean, not median. It also doesn't say that half of people are excluded from it. People reading the article are used to hearing about the average household credit card debt in the USA, and that's also the mean. Edit: I missed the most men part. Other than that it's fine. That would be like if those credit card debt stories said that "most households have more than $7000 in credit card debt" if the average household credit card debt was found to be $7,486 like it was earlier this year: https://thehill.com/finance/3821799-a-growing-number-of-americans-face-potentially-crippling-credit-card-debt/#:~:text=A%20survey%20by%20NerdWallet%2C%20the,%2410%2C000%20in%20credit%2Dcard%20debt https://thehill.com/finance/3821799-a-growing-number-of-amer.... That would sound wrong to me, and it is.
- Semaphor 4y ago
  That’s exactly it. The average gets pulled out of proportion by outliers, so there’s a good chance that far more than 50% of US American man can ride it.
  - benatkin 4y ago
    It isn't getting skewed, it is simply being different than the median. Very common in statistics.
    - Semaphor 4y ago
      What?
      - benatkin 4y ago
        Expecting a gaussian distribution everywhere. For instance in dead pixels in monitors. Say that most have no dead pixels but there are 1000 with one dead pixel. Should there be 1000 with an extra pixel?
        Semaphor 4y ago
        I don’t understand what you are saying. The article says 50% of men. I said with the average, there is no need for it to be 50%, with the median there would be. I have no idea how what you say is related to that.
        benatkin 4y ago
        > The average gets pulled out of proportion by outliers This places a value judgment on the mean not being close to the median
        Semaphor 4y ago
        No, it simply says there’s a chance. That is what this whole subthread was about, and you argued against it for some inexplicable reason. But now I see you even edited your original comment to say you misunderstood, so I’m thinking you are just arguing for the sake of it.
- russell_h 4y ago
  The article says: “According to the CDC, the average American man's waist is 40.5 inches, which means most American men would be excluded from the ride.” If “average” means “mean”, then clearly this reasoning is broken.
  - benatkin 4y ago
    Ah, they expanded poorly on it. They also say that again a paragraph above that. Chalk one up for https://norvig.com/reporters-and-parrots.html https://norvig.com/reporters-and-parrots.html Maybe ChatGPT is already capable of replacing human parroting...
- TulliusCicero 4y ago
  No, whether average refers to mean or median depends on the context.
photochemsyn 4y ago
Yes, this keeps coming up on HN. It's a bimodal distribution, so if 85% of the population can ride on your ride, it's still a solid business proposition.
Ariarule 4y ago
Why speculate? _Anthropometric Reference Data for Children and Adults_, Table 20 "Waist circumference in centimeters for adult males aged 20 and over and number of examined persons, mean, standard error of the mean, and selected percentiles, by race and Hispanic origin and age: United States, 2015–2018" is right at https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_03/sr03-046-508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_03/sr03-046-508.pdf The mean in the very first row is 102.9 cm (the 40.5 inches in the OP), while the 50th percentile is actually lower at 101.8 (39.7 inches).
- graeme 4y ago
  Their point was that mean might be higher than median. That said, from your data is isn’t much higher, so they’re broadly wrong. Headline fairly close to accurate for median too
everybodyknows 4y ago
Distributions are available here: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_03/sr03-046-508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_03/sr03-046-508.pdf Median male adult weight: 192.6 pounds

benatkin 4y ago

I don't see an issue. The headline says average and that normally means mean, not median. It also doesn't say that half of people are excluded from it. People reading the article are used to hearing about the average household credit card debt in the USA, and that's also the mean. Edit: I missed the most men part. Other than that it's fine. That would be like if those credit card debt stories said that "most households have more than $7000 in credit card debt" if the average household credit card debt was found to be $7,486 like it was earlier this year: https://thehill.com/finance/3821799-a-growing-number-of-americans-face-potentially-crippling-credit-card-debt/#:~:text=A%20survey%20by%20NerdWallet%2C%20the,%2410%2C000%20in%20credit%2Dcard%20debt https://thehill.com/finance/3821799-a-growing-number-of-amer.... That would sound wrong to me, and it is.

Semaphor 4y ago
That’s exactly it. The average gets pulled out of proportion by outliers, so there’s a good chance that far more than 50% of US American man can ride it.
- benatkin 4y ago
  It isn't getting skewed, it is simply being different than the median. Very common in statistics.
  - Semaphor 4y ago
    What?
    - benatkin 4y ago
      Expecting a gaussian distribution everywhere. For instance in dead pixels in monitors. Say that most have no dead pixels but there are 1000 with one dead pixel. Should there be 1000 with an extra pixel?
      - Semaphor 4y ago
        I don’t understand what you are saying. The article says 50% of men. I said with the average, there is no need for it to be 50%, with the median there would be. I have no idea how what you say is related to that.
        benatkin 4y ago
        > The average gets pulled out of proportion by outliers This places a value judgment on the mean not being close to the median
        Semaphor 4y ago
        No, it simply says there’s a chance. That is what this whole subthread was about, and you argued against it for some inexplicable reason. But now I see you even edited your original comment to say you misunderstood, so I’m thinking you are just arguing for the sake of it.
russell_h 4y ago
The article says: “According to the CDC, the average American man's waist is 40.5 inches, which means most American men would be excluded from the ride.” If “average” means “mean”, then clearly this reasoning is broken.
- benatkin 4y ago
  Ah, they expanded poorly on it. They also say that again a paragraph above that. Chalk one up for https://norvig.com/reporters-and-parrots.html https://norvig.com/reporters-and-parrots.html Maybe ChatGPT is already capable of replacing human parroting...
TulliusCicero 4y ago
No, whether average refers to mean or median depends on the context.

photochemsyn 4y ago

Yes, this keeps coming up on HN. It's a bimodal distribution, so if 85% of the population can ride on your ride, it's still a solid business proposition.

Ariarule 4y ago

Why speculate? _Anthropometric Reference Data for Children and Adults_, Table 20 "Waist circumference in centimeters for adult males aged 20 and over and number of examined persons, mean, standard error of the mean, and selected percentiles, by race and Hispanic origin and age: United States, 2015–2018" is right at https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_03/sr03-046-508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_03/sr03-046-508.pdf The mean in the very first row is 102.9 cm (the 40.5 inches in the OP), while the 50th percentile is actually lower at 101.8 (39.7 inches).

graeme 4y ago
Their point was that mean might be higher than median. That said, from your data is isn’t much higher, so they’re broadly wrong. Headline fairly close to accurate for median too

everybodyknows 4y ago

Distributions are available here: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_03/sr03-046-508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_03/sr03-046-508.pdf Median male adult weight: 192.6 pounds