5 ms·

Wow. This is so gross. I was a bit put out by the Dr. Seuss controversy a few years back, but at least in those cases, they just stopped printing the books (and

Wow. This is so gross. I was a bit put out by the Dr. Seuss controversy a few years back, but at least in those cases, they just stopped printing the books (and, to be fair, the caricatures of various ethnic groups in If I Ran The Zoo are pretty bad). It feels much more disturbing, though, to just silently update the language in the books to be more in line with modern sensibilities. Dahl was a man of his time, and as a general rule his books have good morals and values exhibited in them. They are perfect children's books, not afraid to dip into a little darkness or to poke fun at the adults who run the world, and that's a huge part of why they've been so successful and universally loved. The mental attitude and sense of self-superiority it must take to feel comfortable taking the knife to something so well loved is really mind-boggling to me. I am very happy that I bought our collection of Dahl's books before this happened.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
> Dahl was a man of his time Everyone is a product of their time. People apparently need to be told this now.
- Aflynn50 4y ago
  Adults don't, but children might. These books arn't consumed by people who are particularly aware of the cultural context of the ear in which they were written. Things are going to very much taken at face value. A lot of things have changed in the last 60 years.
  - mandmandam 4y ago
    We gonna edit all books so kids don't take the crazy parts at face value? Swift? Dickens? The Bible? The Torah? There have been thousands upon thousands upon thousands of children's books written in the last sixty years. Leave the classics the fuck alone, especially when the authors are unable to defend their work.
    - clippablematt 4y ago
      All of your examples, bible etc, have all been repeatedly edited for different cultures and age groups. People act like this is the end of Dahls legacy, yet his stories have probably been discussed more in the past 24 hours than the past few years combined. I recommend the book Graveyard clay on the death on languages, and how the dead are still as chatty as the living- in many ways the dead are harder to silence.
    - oblio 4y ago
      > The Bible? The Torah? Funny examples you list there, where reinterpretations still happen after 2000+ years. The approach in your comment is very pop culture or mainstream religion view of this, not an actual, historical one.
      - inglor_cz 4y ago
        Reinterpretation happens, but shit would hit the fan if you actually went ahead and published a bowdlerized, inclusive, LGBT-centric Quran. Salman Rushdie would have another friend in his misery. It is worthwhile to meditate on Nassim Nicholas Taleb's idea that the most intolerant minority tends to win.
  - oska 4y ago
    > These books arn't consumed by people who are particularly aware of the cultural context of the ear in which they were written Part of reading these books as a child or adolescent is being introduced to the cultural contexts of other times (and perhaps places). When a modern child reads a Victorian children's book, for example, they pick up pretty quickly that it's coming from a different cultural context. And this is a great way to learn about some of the more 'confronting' aspects of other cultural contexts in a pretty non-threatening way (they're just words on a page).
russdill 4y ago
It can be a hard choice with young children. I grew up watching Christmas Story every year. My son is two and I'm very hesitant to continue that tradition when he's a bit older. I don't want him to think that mocking people for their accents is something to be encouraged. It'd be nice to have a version of the movie where that scene is modified or redubbed because the movie is a creative treasure. Of course, once he reaches an age where he's old enough to better understand explanations of racism in media, etc, that's a different story. All cultural history has attitudes that may have changed or that we may even view as repugnant. It's important that people learn about the past and what people were like in the past (or still today). Maybe this type of thing would go off much better if parents were given a choice, and have the opportunity to confront these things with their children when they think they are ready.
- tptacek 4y ago
  I agree; the issue here is more than there's a Monkey Christ level of literary competence that went into these changes (and also what seems like much, much too much ambition about what to change).
  - agentwiggles 4y ago
    I agree to a certain degree, the scope and fairly transparent agenda of the changes definitely make it more of a problem. I'm still put off by the project. I guess there's probably a small set of edits you could make that would be beneficial and not lose the original tone. I'm not convinced of the value of that project but maybe I could get behind it.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      I think a more gifted set of writers could have made the same changes less dunkably, is I guess most of what I have to say here. I sort of do get the idea of excising the fat references, for instance --- I wouldn't, but I get it: these are books for kids, and that's a thing kids absolutely do get victimized over. But if you're going to do it, don't fuck up the music of the prose, or relocate the inflections to Oberlin, Ohio.
Sporktacular 4y ago
Perhaps they shouldn't silently update the new editions but... "Dahl was a man of his time" is a weak argument when millions of his contemporaries - also of his time, were aware of, and actively fighting, anti-semitism. He had access to the same information they had and made his choice. So he should be judged for it.
- agentwiggles 4y ago
  I must admit I'd never heard about his anti-Semitism until today. I looked it up and, well, his statements pretty much leave nothing to the imagination on that front. Shitty, to be sure, no argument from me. Still, as a kid who read his books repeatedly, and as someone who has read most of them to my kids in the last few years, I feel comfortable stating that this anti-Semitic tendency doesn't come through on his work. There might be room for arguments that other prejudices do come through. The Oompa-Loompas are definitely a little... problematic. And some of the language around women in The Witches hits the ear a bit oddly today. When I say "he was a man of his time" I don't mean to excuse everything he said or wrote. I suppose maybe that's a junky phrase that kind of dodges what I actually mean, which is something like "he was who he was, and we should talk about what we find objectionable about him instead of papering it over." There's also something funny about changing his writing in light of some of the worst things he had to say... By the same logic of the edits, maybe we should change the quotes where he expressed antisemitism to make them more palatable. (I'm being facetious obviously, but there is something worth thinking about in why one feels more reasonable than the other).
  - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
    > By the same logic of the edits, maybe we should change the quotes where he expressed antisemitism to make them more palatable. Right, that's precisely the problem. The publisher is changing history! I'm okay with new books being published that clean up the old stories, but they can't rightly list Roald Dahl as the author. The author on the cover needs to be "Roald Dahl & Whoever".
    - webmaven 4y ago
gd1 4y ago
[dead]
lozenge 4y ago
It's not silent, they added a note in the copyright section. Which as a child, was oddly interesting to me.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago

> Dahl was a man of his time Everyone is a product of their time. People apparently need to be told this now.

Aflynn50 4y ago
Adults don't, but children might. These books arn't consumed by people who are particularly aware of the cultural context of the ear in which they were written. Things are going to very much taken at face value. A lot of things have changed in the last 60 years.
- mandmandam 4y ago
  We gonna edit all books so kids don't take the crazy parts at face value? Swift? Dickens? The Bible? The Torah? There have been thousands upon thousands upon thousands of children's books written in the last sixty years. Leave the classics the fuck alone, especially when the authors are unable to defend their work.
  - clippablematt 4y ago
    All of your examples, bible etc, have all been repeatedly edited for different cultures and age groups. People act like this is the end of Dahls legacy, yet his stories have probably been discussed more in the past 24 hours than the past few years combined. I recommend the book Graveyard clay on the death on languages, and how the dead are still as chatty as the living- in many ways the dead are harder to silence.
  - oblio 4y ago
    > The Bible? The Torah? Funny examples you list there, where reinterpretations still happen after 2000+ years. The approach in your comment is very pop culture or mainstream religion view of this, not an actual, historical one.
    - inglor_cz 4y ago
      Reinterpretation happens, but shit would hit the fan if you actually went ahead and published a bowdlerized, inclusive, LGBT-centric Quran. Salman Rushdie would have another friend in his misery. It is worthwhile to meditate on Nassim Nicholas Taleb's idea that the most intolerant minority tends to win.
- oska 4y ago
  > These books arn't consumed by people who are particularly aware of the cultural context of the ear in which they were written Part of reading these books as a child or adolescent is being introduced to the cultural contexts of other times (and perhaps places). When a modern child reads a Victorian children's book, for example, they pick up pretty quickly that it's coming from a different cultural context. And this is a great way to learn about some of the more 'confronting' aspects of other cultural contexts in a pretty non-threatening way (they're just words on a page).

russdill 4y ago

It can be a hard choice with young children. I grew up watching Christmas Story every year. My son is two and I'm very hesitant to continue that tradition when he's a bit older. I don't want him to think that mocking people for their accents is something to be encouraged. It'd be nice to have a version of the movie where that scene is modified or redubbed because the movie is a creative treasure. Of course, once he reaches an age where he's old enough to better understand explanations of racism in media, etc, that's a different story. All cultural history has attitudes that may have changed or that we may even view as repugnant. It's important that people learn about the past and what people were like in the past (or still today). Maybe this type of thing would go off much better if parents were given a choice, and have the opportunity to confront these things with their children when they think they are ready.

tptacek 4y ago
I agree; the issue here is more than there's a Monkey Christ level of literary competence that went into these changes (and also what seems like much, much too much ambition about what to change).
- agentwiggles 4y ago
  I agree to a certain degree, the scope and fairly transparent agenda of the changes definitely make it more of a problem. I'm still put off by the project. I guess there's probably a small set of edits you could make that would be beneficial and not lose the original tone. I'm not convinced of the value of that project but maybe I could get behind it.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    I think a more gifted set of writers could have made the same changes less dunkably, is I guess most of what I have to say here. I sort of do get the idea of excising the fat references, for instance --- I wouldn't, but I get it: these are books for kids, and that's a thing kids absolutely do get victimized over. But if you're going to do it, don't fuck up the music of the prose, or relocate the inflections to Oberlin, Ohio.

Sporktacular 4y ago

Perhaps they shouldn't silently update the new editions but... "Dahl was a man of his time" is a weak argument when millions of his contemporaries - also of his time, were aware of, and actively fighting, anti-semitism. He had access to the same information they had and made his choice. So he should be judged for it.

agentwiggles 4y ago
I must admit I'd never heard about his anti-Semitism until today. I looked it up and, well, his statements pretty much leave nothing to the imagination on that front. Shitty, to be sure, no argument from me. Still, as a kid who read his books repeatedly, and as someone who has read most of them to my kids in the last few years, I feel comfortable stating that this anti-Semitic tendency doesn't come through on his work. There might be room for arguments that other prejudices do come through. The Oompa-Loompas are definitely a little... problematic. And some of the language around women in The Witches hits the ear a bit oddly today. When I say "he was a man of his time" I don't mean to excuse everything he said or wrote. I suppose maybe that's a junky phrase that kind of dodges what I actually mean, which is something like "he was who he was, and we should talk about what we find objectionable about him instead of papering it over." There's also something funny about changing his writing in light of some of the worst things he had to say... By the same logic of the edits, maybe we should change the quotes where he expressed antisemitism to make them more palatable. (I'm being facetious obviously, but there is something worth thinking about in why one feels more reasonable than the other).
- Wowfunhappy 4y ago
  > By the same logic of the edits, maybe we should change the quotes where he expressed antisemitism to make them more palatable. Right, that's precisely the problem. The publisher is changing history! I'm okay with new books being published that clean up the old stories, but they can't rightly list Roald Dahl as the author. The author on the cover needs to be "Roald Dahl & Whoever".
  - webmaven 4y ago

gd1 4y ago

[dead]

lozenge 4y ago

It's not silent, they added a note in the copyright section. Which as a child, was oddly interesting to me.