5 ms·

Well, if you don't know by now you need to do ergonomics. The answer is so blatantly obvious I can't be bothered answering it. Did you actually read the articl

Well, if you don't know by now you need to do ergonomics. The answer is so blatantly obvious I can't be bothered answering it. Did you actually read the article? There's a few clues therein.

crazygringo 4y ago
Please don't be insulting like that, it's against HN guidelines, which you've broken two of (the other is insinuating someone hasn't read the article). I actually have extensive knowledge of ergonomics, which is why I'm asking. There are zero clues in the article, so I'd love an explanation. Because just to be clear -- haptic buttons activated by pressure are just as easily located by touch and require the same amount of force in the same direction. So what is the ergonomic difference?
- hilbert42 4y ago
  1. Not once did I mention 'haptic' in my post so why did you raise it in your reply? 2. My comment is about poor and unacceptable ergonomics of much modern equipment and software and how it's getting worse—not better. My post is in support of Allison Johnson's story except that I've taken the wider more general case to point out that Apple is not alone in subverting good ergonomic design for manufacturing convenience and profit; that is, it's a widespread problem. My point is that customers/users must take a stand if it's to stop. 3. You asked the question 'What do haptic buttons have to do with ergonomics?' I'll answer that by first briefly defining ergonomics. Ergonomics (aka HFE, Human Factors Engineering/Ergonomics) is a rigorous discipline concerned with the study of how humans work and interact with inanimate objects: tools, chairs, parts or elements of systems, software, etc. and the application of that data to optimizing the performance of that human/machine interaction (I'm sure there's a more succinct definition but that'll do for now). 4. Haptics is an integral—in fact essential—part of ergonomics, the science couldn't progress without it: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-14075-4_52 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-14075-4_.... You say you have extensive experience of ergonomics, so why did you question the connection between the subject and haptics? Your question is the equivalent of asking 'what's the difference between counting or multiplying and mathematics?'. What you asked is essentially a non sequitur. Assuming you understand the meaning of ergonomics then it makes no sense. 5. I never make comments on HN that are deliberately intended to offend at a personal level and that's my position here. My comments are often forceful and opinionated but I generally try to structure and present them as one side of a formal argument†. My comment here was understandable and a normal reaction given your nonsensical comment. Please don't read anything more into it than that. __ † Edit: Formal argument has rules which most seem to forget, if most people stuck to them then the internet would be a much more civilized place.
  - crazygringo 4y ago
    > Not once did I mention 'haptic' in my post so why did you raise it in your reply? Because that was the whole subject of the article -- replacing buttons that move with haptic-feedback buttons. And your comment was a response to the article. And despite your lengthy reply, you still haven't suggested why replacing a physical depressed button with a haptic one has any ergonomic implications, given that the user interaction appears identical. > I never make comments on HN that are deliberately intended to offend... given your nonsensical comment. Well calling my comment "nonsensical" continues to offend, and it's awfully hard to see it as anything but deliberate. Again, I suggest you look at HN guidelines which you are continuing to break.
    - hilbert42 4y ago
      1. First, Taptic user interaction won't be identical to a physical switch, at best it may be adequate but not as good as I'll explain (that's Johnson's point). 2. Both a mechanical push-button switch which actuates (that is, parts move to switch on) and Apple's Taptic switch are BOTH haptic devices/interfaces by definition. Here's part of the Merriam-Webster dictionary definition of 'haptic': "haptic, adjective 1: relating to or based on the sense of touch 2: characterized by a predilection for the sense of touch https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/haptic https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/haptic 3. Again, the thrust of Allison Johnson's article is that the more familiar mechanical switch interface works better than an Apple's Taptic capacitive-type. There is no doubt about this as switces without tactile resistance do not provide dynamic feedback to the human who pushes it. It's why so many hate smartphone keyboards—they only use them out of sufferance because there's nothing better. They've a dead feel and are dynamically unresponsive. Nothing illustrates this better than competative gamers who demand mechanical keyboards. For them, everything about a keyboard is important, its size, rigidity, stability, visual feedback (lit keys etc.) and especially the key switches—all of which contribute to the main haptic feedback (interaction) that the user experiences. Diehard gamers demand 'Rolls Royce-type' key switches of the highest quality, these are usually made by the industry leader Cherry. Even then that's not enough, they'll select a specific type of key that has acceleration dynamics and actuation pressure to their liking and particular working style. It's why Cherry and other keyboard manufacturers grade their keys by color, red, blue, black, green etc.: https://keebnews.com/mechanical-keyboard-color-switches-guide/ https://keebnews.com/mechanical-keyboard-color-switches-guid.... Same goes for the original IBM PC keyboard, anyone who has ever owned one would never part with it (here read, 'It Sounds and Feels Satisfying') : https://www.howtogeek.com/661430/why-i-still-use-a-34-year-old-ibm-model-m-keyboard/ https://www.howtogeek.com/661430/why-i-still-use-a-34-year-o.... 4. A well made mechanical switch provides consistent tactile feedback, it offers increasing mechanical resistance up to the point where it switches, moreover, it not only switches cleanly and repeatedly but also has a predictability about its operation. As such, the human has confidence in it and thus it becomes an extension of his/her body (fingers). The more predicable the switch's action the more effective it is as an extension of the human anatomy. 5. All these switch parameters are important because the tips of human fingers are exquisitely sensitive to touch and feel, a human notices even the slightest change in acceleration, pressure and means of touch. 'Taptic' type buttons are made to mimic a mechanical one; that is they can be made to respond to the speed of a user's actions (time rate change of capacitance as a finger approaches/withdraws), and the pressure applied (capacitance changes as the area of the finger on the surface changes—it increases when the user pushes harder as more skin touches the surface). Note: this is a vast subject and I've barely scratched the surface. No doubt these Taptic-style interfaces work as they are the basis of modern screen operation in smartphones. However, they are far from perfect. I'll illustrate what I mean by example. Above, I moved the order of two sentences about, and as this is comment is being prepared on my smartphone, I selected the text to be moved by highlighting it with my finger. The trouble was (as is so often the case with many others and me) selecting the text this way was difficult, in fact it's often a damn nuisance. Either one's pressure is too high or too low, or the conductivity of one's fingers changes with circumstance or the granularity of selection is wrong—finger too big, text too small, etc.). Irrespective, selecting text on a smartphone is much harder† than with, say, a mouse. The fact is that whilst these Taptic-style interfaces work they do not provide the dynamic tactile feedback that a proper mechanical switch, mouse, joystick or stylus does (the stylus is why I loved my old Samsung note3). Simply, the dynamic tactile feedback is missing. A crude analogy would be the withdrawl method of contraception—works sort of but not very satisfying. The fact is human body requires this subtle feedback if it's to work at its best. Another good example is a pianist and the feedback from piano keys. When a pianist tries to play an organ, harmonium or an on/off electric keyboard without dynamics for the first time then he/she is often thrown completely, the result is often horrible. There's no doubt that Apple's engineers will go to inordinate lengths and use combinations of algorithms to optimize the Taptic performance and no doubt it will work but the fact still remains that without tactile feedback that possesses dynamic range—as opposed to a finger hitting a glass or other hard surface—then effectively the tool/human (haptic) interface is only half done. QED! 6. You wanted a finely-ground answer and now you have one. My argument was and still is that whilst the author's choice of words could have been better in that her usage of the word 'haptic' is loose to say the least the thrust of her point/argument is nevertheless crystal clear. I still can't understand why you cannot see this. Essentially, with your understanding of ergonomics (and presumably haptics) you should have skipped the somewhat mangled terminology and cut through to the core of Johnson's argument. __ † For those who would question otherwise I'd ask them to check the size of the text compared to their finger size. Often this is suboptimal, especially so if one has large fingers and one chooses small text as I do (for me, the more text per screen the better). This type of limitation/problem is not a function of brand or O/S (Apple versus Android) but rather it's intrinsic to its modus operandi for reasons stated above. That said, the quality of the implementation differs between brands/systems but the fundamental design limitation remains. Whilst I'm not doing so here, I often use a Bluetooth mouse and keyboard with my smartphone as this overcomes these limitations—I even get to choose the type of keys on my mechanical keyboard. The fact that PC peripherals can be used with a smartphone is clearly a tacit acknowledgment by the designers of the limitations I've been discussing.

Well, if you don't know by now you need to do ergonomics. The answer is so blatantly obvious I can't be bothered answering it. Did you actually read the article? There's a few clues therein.

crazygringo 4y ago

Please don't be insulting like that, it's against HN guidelines, which you've broken two of (the other is insinuating someone hasn't read the article). I actually have extensive knowledge of ergonomics, which is why I'm asking. There are zero clues in the article, so I'd love an explanation. Because just to be clear -- haptic buttons activated by pressure are just as easily located by touch and require the same amount of force in the same direction. So what is the ergonomic difference?

hilbert42 4y ago
1. Not once did I mention 'haptic' in my post so why did you raise it in your reply? 2. My comment is about poor and unacceptable ergonomics of much modern equipment and software and how it's getting worse—not better. My post is in support of Allison Johnson's story except that I've taken the wider more general case to point out that Apple is not alone in subverting good ergonomic design for manufacturing convenience and profit; that is, it's a widespread problem. My point is that customers/users must take a stand if it's to stop. 3. You asked the question 'What do haptic buttons have to do with ergonomics?' I'll answer that by first briefly defining ergonomics. Ergonomics (aka HFE, Human Factors Engineering/Ergonomics) is a rigorous discipline concerned with the study of how humans work and interact with inanimate objects: tools, chairs, parts or elements of systems, software, etc. and the application of that data to optimizing the performance of that human/machine interaction (I'm sure there's a more succinct definition but that'll do for now). 4. Haptics is an integral—in fact essential—part of ergonomics, the science couldn't progress without it: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-14075-4_52 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-14075-4_.... You say you have extensive experience of ergonomics, so why did you question the connection between the subject and haptics? Your question is the equivalent of asking 'what's the difference between counting or multiplying and mathematics?'. What you asked is essentially a non sequitur. Assuming you understand the meaning of ergonomics then it makes no sense. 5. I never make comments on HN that are deliberately intended to offend at a personal level and that's my position here. My comments are often forceful and opinionated but I generally try to structure and present them as one side of a formal argument†. My comment here was understandable and a normal reaction given your nonsensical comment. Please don't read anything more into it than that. __ † Edit: Formal argument has rules which most seem to forget, if most people stuck to them then the internet would be a much more civilized place.
- crazygringo 4y ago
  > Not once did I mention 'haptic' in my post so why did you raise it in your reply? Because that was the whole subject of the article -- replacing buttons that move with haptic-feedback buttons. And your comment was a response to the article. And despite your lengthy reply, you still haven't suggested why replacing a physical depressed button with a haptic one has any ergonomic implications, given that the user interaction appears identical. > I never make comments on HN that are deliberately intended to offend... given your nonsensical comment. Well calling my comment "nonsensical" continues to offend, and it's awfully hard to see it as anything but deliberate. Again, I suggest you look at HN guidelines which you are continuing to break.
  - hilbert42 4y ago
    1. First, Taptic user interaction won't be identical to a physical switch, at best it may be adequate but not as good as I'll explain (that's Johnson's point). 2. Both a mechanical push-button switch which actuates (that is, parts move to switch on) and Apple's Taptic switch are BOTH haptic devices/interfaces by definition. Here's part of the Merriam-Webster dictionary definition of 'haptic': "haptic, adjective 1: relating to or based on the sense of touch 2: characterized by a predilection for the sense of touch https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/haptic https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/haptic 3. Again, the thrust of Allison Johnson's article is that the more familiar mechanical switch interface works better than an Apple's Taptic capacitive-type. There is no doubt about this as switces without tactile resistance do not provide dynamic feedback to the human who pushes it. It's why so many hate smartphone keyboards—they only use them out of sufferance because there's nothing better. They've a dead feel and are dynamically unresponsive. Nothing illustrates this better than competative gamers who demand mechanical keyboards. For them, everything about a keyboard is important, its size, rigidity, stability, visual feedback (lit keys etc.) and especially the key switches—all of which contribute to the main haptic feedback (interaction) that the user experiences. Diehard gamers demand 'Rolls Royce-type' key switches of the highest quality, these are usually made by the industry leader Cherry. Even then that's not enough, they'll select a specific type of key that has acceleration dynamics and actuation pressure to their liking and particular working style. It's why Cherry and other keyboard manufacturers grade their keys by color, red, blue, black, green etc.: https://keebnews.com/mechanical-keyboard-color-switches-guide/ https://keebnews.com/mechanical-keyboard-color-switches-guid.... Same goes for the original IBM PC keyboard, anyone who has ever owned one would never part with it (here read, 'It Sounds and Feels Satisfying') : https://www.howtogeek.com/661430/why-i-still-use-a-34-year-old-ibm-model-m-keyboard/ https://www.howtogeek.com/661430/why-i-still-use-a-34-year-o.... 4. A well made mechanical switch provides consistent tactile feedback, it offers increasing mechanical resistance up to the point where it switches, moreover, it not only switches cleanly and repeatedly but also has a predictability about its operation. As such, the human has confidence in it and thus it becomes an extension of his/her body (fingers). The more predicable the switch's action the more effective it is as an extension of the human anatomy. 5. All these switch parameters are important because the tips of human fingers are exquisitely sensitive to touch and feel, a human notices even the slightest change in acceleration, pressure and means of touch. 'Taptic' type buttons are made to mimic a mechanical one; that is they can be made to respond to the speed of a user's actions (time rate change of capacitance as a finger approaches/withdraws), and the pressure applied (capacitance changes as the area of the finger on the surface changes—it increases when the user pushes harder as more skin touches the surface). Note: this is a vast subject and I've barely scratched the surface. No doubt these Taptic-style interfaces work as they are the basis of modern screen operation in smartphones. However, they are far from perfect. I'll illustrate what I mean by example. Above, I moved the order of two sentences about, and as this is comment is being prepared on my smartphone, I selected the text to be moved by highlighting it with my finger. The trouble was (as is so often the case with many others and me) selecting the text this way was difficult, in fact it's often a damn nuisance. Either one's pressure is too high or too low, or the conductivity of one's fingers changes with circumstance or the granularity of selection is wrong—finger too big, text too small, etc.). Irrespective, selecting text on a smartphone is much harder† than with, say, a mouse. The fact is that whilst these Taptic-style interfaces work they do not provide the dynamic tactile feedback that a proper mechanical switch, mouse, joystick or stylus does (the stylus is why I loved my old Samsung note3). Simply, the dynamic tactile feedback is missing. A crude analogy would be the withdrawl method of contraception—works sort of but not very satisfying. The fact is human body requires this subtle feedback if it's to work at its best. Another good example is a pianist and the feedback from piano keys. When a pianist tries to play an organ, harmonium or an on/off electric keyboard without dynamics for the first time then he/she is often thrown completely, the result is often horrible. There's no doubt that Apple's engineers will go to inordinate lengths and use combinations of algorithms to optimize the Taptic performance and no doubt it will work but the fact still remains that without tactile feedback that possesses dynamic range—as opposed to a finger hitting a glass or other hard surface—then effectively the tool/human (haptic) interface is only half done. QED! 6. You wanted a finely-ground answer and now you have one. My argument was and still is that whilst the author's choice of words could have been better in that her usage of the word 'haptic' is loose to say the least the thrust of her point/argument is nevertheless crystal clear. I still can't understand why you cannot see this. Essentially, with your understanding of ergonomics (and presumably haptics) you should have skipped the somewhat mangled terminology and cut through to the core of Johnson's argument. __ † For those who would question otherwise I'd ask them to check the size of the text compared to their finger size. Often this is suboptimal, especially so if one has large fingers and one chooses small text as I do (for me, the more text per screen the better). This type of limitation/problem is not a function of brand or O/S (Apple versus Android) but rather it's intrinsic to its modus operandi for reasons stated above. That said, the quality of the implementation differs between brands/systems but the fundamental design limitation remains. Whilst I'm not doing so here, I often use a Bluetooth mouse and keyboard with my smartphone as this overcomes these limitations—I even get to choose the type of keys on my mechanical keyboard. The fact that PC peripherals can be used with a smartphone is clearly a tacit acknowledgment by the designers of the limitations I've been discussing.