4 ms·

I'm not sure why people instantly jump to unionization when making these types of claims. You assume that every company is cooperating to pay the same price for

I'm not sure why people instantly jump to unionization when making these types of claims. You assume that every company is cooperating to pay the same price for labor, when that's not at all the case. It may only seem like that at the low end because of artificially high minimum wages in some states ($15/hr) which basically makes multiple skill levels of labor all pay the same when they used to pay different. Also these two statements are in conflict: > Unemployment is at a 60 year low. > just a shortage of people willing to work for poverty wages

oivey 4y ago
I don’t see how those are at all in conflict. Not many people are unemployed, so employers are having a hard time filling low paying positions. The first bullet is about supply (labor force) while the second is about demand (employers).
- mlindner 4y ago
  I guess I quoted without enough context. In my mind when reading in context they were in conflict, but reading again in isolation I agree they're somehow no longer in conflict.
toomuchtodo 4y ago
I argue the minimum wage isn’t artificially high, it’s artificially low. Can you live on $7/hr? In many places, you cannot live on $15/hr either. When was the last time the federal minimum wage was increased? 13 years ago. 20 states do not mandate a minimum wage higher than the federal rate. https://www.americanprogress.org/article/its-long-past-time-to-increase-the-federal-minimum-wage/ https://www.americanprogress.org/article/its-long-past-time-... https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/16/minimum-wage-many-workers-still-arent-making-enough-to-get-by.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/16/minimum-wage-many-workers-st... https://livingwage.mit.edu/ https://livingwage.mit.edu/ Unions are not just for wages. They are also to counter at will employment and abusive labor practices. Starbucks and Amazon have been union busting and they have been forced to hire back the workers they improperly fired. To believe unions only serve to improve wages is short sighted when looking at the greater macro labor situation, where workers are treated as replaceable and disposable.
- tbrownaw 4y ago
  There's no such thing as an "artificially low" minimum wage, just one that doesn't distort anything because market conditions force everyone to pay more anyway.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    If the minimum wage is below a living wage, it is artificially low. The market does not pay you more just because you need more to survive, hence the need for a solid wage floor. The thesis, high level, is: do we care about maximizing for profits (no or artificially low minimum wage)? Or some less profit and humans being able to live with dignity and some form of psychological safety (minimum wage aligned to living wage).
    - mlindner 4y ago
      Minimum wages increase the cost of living by making low level services cost more. This is a circular problem. Also the definition of "living wage" varies wildly depending on what kitchen sink people want to throw into it. People seem to think that everyone deserves to make enough money for luxuries whereas that shouldn't be the case in general.
- mlindner 4y ago
  > Can you live on $7/hr? Yes, of course. The income taxes are almost zero (or negative), and for one person living by themselves in a studio apartment that's $400 for rent for a cheap studio apartment and $800 a month in groceries and gas, which is quite a lot. And that's assuming you can't live out of your parents house as you work, which is the suggested way of doing this kind of thing. There's zero reason to move out if you can't afford it. It allows you to save up money and gain skills with less stress. The "living wage" myth gets repeated way too often.

oivey 4y ago

I don’t see how those are at all in conflict. Not many people are unemployed, so employers are having a hard time filling low paying positions. The first bullet is about supply (labor force) while the second is about demand (employers).

mlindner 4y ago
I guess I quoted without enough context. In my mind when reading in context they were in conflict, but reading again in isolation I agree they're somehow no longer in conflict.

toomuchtodo 4y ago

I argue the minimum wage isn’t artificially high, it’s artificially low. Can you live on $7/hr? In many places, you cannot live on $15/hr either. When was the last time the federal minimum wage was increased? 13 years ago. 20 states do not mandate a minimum wage higher than the federal rate. https://www.americanprogress.org/article/its-long-past-time-to-increase-the-federal-minimum-wage/ https://www.americanprogress.org/article/its-long-past-time-... https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/16/minimum-wage-many-workers-still-arent-making-enough-to-get-by.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/16/minimum-wage-many-workers-st... https://livingwage.mit.edu/ https://livingwage.mit.edu/ Unions are not just for wages. They are also to counter at will employment and abusive labor practices. Starbucks and Amazon have been union busting and they have been forced to hire back the workers they improperly fired. To believe unions only serve to improve wages is short sighted when looking at the greater macro labor situation, where workers are treated as replaceable and disposable.

tbrownaw 4y ago
There's no such thing as an "artificially low" minimum wage, just one that doesn't distort anything because market conditions force everyone to pay more anyway.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  If the minimum wage is below a living wage, it is artificially low. The market does not pay you more just because you need more to survive, hence the need for a solid wage floor. The thesis, high level, is: do we care about maximizing for profits (no or artificially low minimum wage)? Or some less profit and humans being able to live with dignity and some form of psychological safety (minimum wage aligned to living wage).
  - mlindner 4y ago
    Minimum wages increase the cost of living by making low level services cost more. This is a circular problem. Also the definition of "living wage" varies wildly depending on what kitchen sink people want to throw into it. People seem to think that everyone deserves to make enough money for luxuries whereas that shouldn't be the case in general.
mlindner 4y ago
> Can you live on $7/hr? Yes, of course. The income taxes are almost zero (or negative), and for one person living by themselves in a studio apartment that's $400 for rent for a cheap studio apartment and $800 a month in groceries and gas, which is quite a lot. And that's assuming you can't live out of your parents house as you work, which is the suggested way of doing this kind of thing. There's zero reason to move out if you can't afford it. It allows you to save up money and gain skills with less stress. The "living wage" myth gets repeated way too often.