5 ms·

That’s anecdotal though. For an opposite anecdote, airplanes have been pretty much the same since the 70s.

by mach1ne 4y ago

buryat 4y ago
> airplanes have been pretty much the same since the 70s. you need to back your claims
- fragmede 4y ago
  Since the Concorde was grounded, arguably we've regressed.
mhandley 4y ago
They may look the same, but they've changed a lot when it comes to safety: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_safety#/media/File:Fatalities_per_revenue_passenger_kilometre_in_air_transport_since_1970.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_safety#/media/File:Fa...
hef19898 4y ago
Except they aren't. Not when it cmes to noise, fuel consumption or safety. Or weight, or range, or reliability.
samtho 4y ago
Airplanes are a relatively poor anecdote. They have advanced in small but steady changes over time. The prevalence of the single aisle, 6 abreast seating of the 737 and A320 came about because airlines could reliably fill short to medium haul flight and were cost effective in other ways. We have more efficient engines, systems have gotten safer, etc. There is a lot of work behind the scenes with aircraft.
- credit_guy 4y ago
  Wright's brother's first flight happened in 1903. Within 15 years there were dogfights in WW1. In 31 years the first commercial service over the Atlantic started (cargo) and 5 years later (1939) the first commercial passenger transatlantic line was opened. Three decades later, the man got to the Moon. A few years later Concorde started regular supersonic commercial transatlantic flights. After that we got what? Less noise, improved fuel efficiency, increased range? I started flying about 25 years ago. I don't remember that flights were noisier. As for efficiency and range, I don't give a hoot. I care about ticket prices and flights happening on schedule. Prices have gone up, innovative fees piled up on top of them, delays are oh-so-common. As for safety, 25 years ago planes were crashing about as frequently as now. For regular people like me, the advances in safety were imperceptible.
  - Oxidation 4y ago
    A lot more passenger miles are flown then 25 years ago: there are more flights and they go further. Fatalities per passenger mile are something on the order of 5-10 times less than in the 90s. You also hear about every single one of them now, partly as they're rare and exciting to the media and partly because the Internet makes everything "nearby", whereas in the 90s you'd have probably only gotten a quick radio segment and a mid-paper article on a remote air crash. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fatalities_per_revenue_passenger_kilometre_in_air_transport_since_1970.png https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fatalities_per_reven...
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    I can’t tell if you’re serious or not, but airline flights seem incredibly cheap to me and substantially safer than 40 years ago. It’s true that most of the safety in US scheduled aviation had been achieved by 2000. In the 60s, 70s and 80s, flights were expensive and rarely taken by regular people. Now, they’re readily accessible to most everyone. (I can recall calling to book a “bereavement fare” to attend a family funeral and having to be prepared to send proof of death because a regular fare from BOS to PIT would otherwise be prohibitively expensive. I don’t know if those even exist anymore because the economy fares are so cheap.)
  - eyelidlessness 4y ago
    To be fair, every single one of your complaints can be attributed to innovations of capitalism. You’re experiencing fewer innovations not because they’re not happening, but because they’re serving an insatiable demand for profits for centers or capital. That’s not to say it isn’t disappointing! Just that your marginally-the-same flight experience is that way because improvements in flight are designed to enhance the lives of executives and investors rather than passengers. If anything, they’ve made the flight experience worse for you and me as much as we'll bear, while improving flight objectively at the same time… because profits demand ever more growth.
    - junofan 4y ago
      Looking at the DoT’s stats on financials of 24 US airlines, I dunno if this critique is rooted in reality. I think domestic airlines aren’t doing a great job for their investors, either. Can’t comment on executives.
tfussell 4y ago
We've improved fuel efficiency by a factor of 8 since 1970: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Aviation_Efficiency_(RPK_per_kg_CO2).svg https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Aviation_Efficienc...
nitwit005 4y ago
> Jet airliners have become 70% more fuel efficient between 1967 and 2007. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_aircraft#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_aircraft#Histo... I'd agree that aviation improvements have slowed way down, but they've certainly gotten dramatically better in that time frame. And, while passenger airplanes do look similar to how they used to, we now have all sorts of drones flying around, some of which would have awed people in the 70s.

That’s anecdotal though. For an opposite anecdote, airplanes have been pretty much the same since the 70s.

buryat 4y ago

> airplanes have been pretty much the same since the 70s. you need to back your claims

fragmede 4y ago
Since the Concorde was grounded, arguably we've regressed.

mhandley 4y ago

They may look the same, but they've changed a lot when it comes to safety: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_safety#/media/File:Fatalities_per_revenue_passenger_kilometre_in_air_transport_since_1970.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_safety#/media/File:Fa...

hef19898 4y ago

Except they aren't. Not when it cmes to noise, fuel consumption or safety. Or weight, or range, or reliability.

samtho 4y ago

Airplanes are a relatively poor anecdote. They have advanced in small but steady changes over time. The prevalence of the single aisle, 6 abreast seating of the 737 and A320 came about because airlines could reliably fill short to medium haul flight and were cost effective in other ways. We have more efficient engines, systems have gotten safer, etc. There is a lot of work behind the scenes with aircraft.

credit_guy 4y ago
Wright's brother's first flight happened in 1903. Within 15 years there were dogfights in WW1. In 31 years the first commercial service over the Atlantic started (cargo) and 5 years later (1939) the first commercial passenger transatlantic line was opened. Three decades later, the man got to the Moon. A few years later Concorde started regular supersonic commercial transatlantic flights. After that we got what? Less noise, improved fuel efficiency, increased range? I started flying about 25 years ago. I don't remember that flights were noisier. As for efficiency and range, I don't give a hoot. I care about ticket prices and flights happening on schedule. Prices have gone up, innovative fees piled up on top of them, delays are oh-so-common. As for safety, 25 years ago planes were crashing about as frequently as now. For regular people like me, the advances in safety were imperceptible.
- Oxidation 4y ago
  A lot more passenger miles are flown then 25 years ago: there are more flights and they go further. Fatalities per passenger mile are something on the order of 5-10 times less than in the 90s. You also hear about every single one of them now, partly as they're rare and exciting to the media and partly because the Internet makes everything "nearby", whereas in the 90s you'd have probably only gotten a quick radio segment and a mid-paper article on a remote air crash. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fatalities_per_revenue_passenger_kilometre_in_air_transport_since_1970.png https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fatalities_per_reven...
- sokoloff 4y ago
  I can’t tell if you’re serious or not, but airline flights seem incredibly cheap to me and substantially safer than 40 years ago. It’s true that most of the safety in US scheduled aviation had been achieved by 2000. In the 60s, 70s and 80s, flights were expensive and rarely taken by regular people. Now, they’re readily accessible to most everyone. (I can recall calling to book a “bereavement fare” to attend a family funeral and having to be prepared to send proof of death because a regular fare from BOS to PIT would otherwise be prohibitively expensive. I don’t know if those even exist anymore because the economy fares are so cheap.)
- eyelidlessness 4y ago
  To be fair, every single one of your complaints can be attributed to innovations of capitalism. You’re experiencing fewer innovations not because they’re not happening, but because they’re serving an insatiable demand for profits for centers or capital. That’s not to say it isn’t disappointing! Just that your marginally-the-same flight experience is that way because improvements in flight are designed to enhance the lives of executives and investors rather than passengers. If anything, they’ve made the flight experience worse for you and me as much as we'll bear, while improving flight objectively at the same time… because profits demand ever more growth.
  - junofan 4y ago
    Looking at the DoT’s stats on financials of 24 US airlines, I dunno if this critique is rooted in reality. I think domestic airlines aren’t doing a great job for their investors, either. Can’t comment on executives.

tfussell 4y ago

We've improved fuel efficiency by a factor of 8 since 1970: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Aviation_Efficiency_(RPK_per_kg_CO2).svg https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Aviation_Efficienc...

nitwit005 4y ago

> Jet airliners have become 70% more fuel efficient between 1967 and 2007. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_aircraft#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_aircraft#Histo... I'd agree that aviation improvements have slowed way down, but they've certainly gotten dramatically better in that time frame. And, while passenger airplanes do look similar to how they used to, we now have all sorts of drones flying around, some of which would have awed people in the 70s.