5 ms·

I don't know anything about the reform, but for me as an outsider it's so weird to see that while in the US many notions of national heritage are considered bor

I don't know anything about the reform, but for me as an outsider it's so weird to see that while in the US many notions of national heritage are considered borderline racist or fascist, similar things in Israel seem to be the only acceptable positions in the public Overton window. All that stuff about Zionism, Aliyah, Jewish identity and Jewish heritage in that context gives off weird vibes.

nhchris 4y ago
Not just in the US, but Australia, Canada, and many European countries too.
wslh 4y ago
Could you expand what you mean and what you see different in Israel? US, just as an example, embeds a lot of racism, sexism, futile and unjust wars in the last decades, and is closed regarding inmigration comparing it to, say, Canada. Other countries as well, so it is great to compare them along many dimensions. You choose specific dimension to argument (e.g. heritage) living the many dimensions aside.
- nhchris 4y ago
  > is closed regarding inmigration comparing it to, say, Canada. Is this a joke? The US went from 83.5% white in 1970, to 57.8% in 2020 [1], mainly due to immigration. How many other countries can you point to where the former majority population went from overwhelming majority, to the brink of minority status, in 60 years - less than a lifetime? If this is "closed", then what on earth would be needed to be called "open"?? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_racial_and_ethnic_demographics_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_racial_and_ethnic_d...
  - wslh 4y ago
    Population does not neglect racism.
  - weatherlite 4y ago
    Much of it is due to illegal immigration (that eventually gains status) and higher birth rates, I highly doubt this was intentional policy
- LudwigNagasena 4y ago
  > Could you expand what you mean and what you see different in Israel? For example, in the US public discourse you wouldn't find any notion of White Christian Liberal Democracy; if there is any, it is usually thoroughly denied by its alleged supporters and it is allegedly wrapped into layers of dog whistles and innuendos. I didn't want to make any explicit comparisons because they are going to be crude and lacking in their form and content due to the complexity of the topic and the short format of the comment section. So, of course, one can say that the parallels I draw are inadequate and so on because reasons, but the existence of that distinction is kind of my point. > You choose specific dimension to argument (e.g. heritage) living the many dimensions aside. That's the context of the "Statement of Jewish scientists". It is not a statement of Israeli scientists, it is not a statement of American scientists. It is not a statement of scientists qua scientists. So that's what grabbed my attention and what I commented on.
weatherlite 4y ago
Jewish identity gives you a weird vibe? Too bad, there are Jews. They're there. They have an identity. Maybe you'll get over this one day.
- LudwigNagasena 4y ago
  > Jewish identity gives you a weird vibe? Depends on how it is manifested as it is with any other identity. > They're there Where there? Thinking that Jews should have special rights in Israel by necessity means that Jews should have less rights outside of Israel. You may feel that it is the only self-evident and obviously righteous position, but I don't see why and I don't find your snarkiness justified.
  - weatherlite 4y ago
    > Thinking that Jews should have special rights in Israel by necessity means that Jews should have less rights outside of Israel. I Never said that, and I really don't think it follows that Jews outside Israel should have less rights because of what goes on in Israel. Making that implication is considered anti-Semitic which you are obviously not. All I said is that there is a specific Jewish identity just like there is a Palestinian identity. You are welcome to think that Jews should leave Israel or whatever, that still doesn't negate the fact that Jews have a unique identity.
    - LudwigNagasena 4y ago
      > I really don't think it follows that Jews outside Israel should have less rights because of what goes on in Israel. It is just a straightforward tautology. If you think that Israel is a special place wrt to Jews, it implies that every other place is not a special place for Jews, and by necessity provides less privileges and rights to Jews than Israel. > All I said is that there is a specific Jewish identity just like there is a Palestinian identity. You are welcome to think that Jews should leave Israel or whatever, that still doesn't negate the fact that Jews have a unique identity. There are all kinds of identities that appear and evolve with passage of time. I am not sure what’s the point of that trivial remark.

nhchris 4y ago

Not just in the US, but Australia, Canada, and many European countries too.

wslh 4y ago

Could you expand what you mean and what you see different in Israel? US, just as an example, embeds a lot of racism, sexism, futile and unjust wars in the last decades, and is closed regarding inmigration comparing it to, say, Canada. Other countries as well, so it is great to compare them along many dimensions. You choose specific dimension to argument (e.g. heritage) living the many dimensions aside.

nhchris 4y ago
> is closed regarding inmigration comparing it to, say, Canada. Is this a joke? The US went from 83.5% white in 1970, to 57.8% in 2020 [1], mainly due to immigration. How many other countries can you point to where the former majority population went from overwhelming majority, to the brink of minority status, in 60 years - less than a lifetime? If this is "closed", then what on earth would be needed to be called "open"?? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_racial_and_ethnic_demographics_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_racial_and_ethnic_d...
- wslh 4y ago
  Population does not neglect racism.
- weatherlite 4y ago
  Much of it is due to illegal immigration (that eventually gains status) and higher birth rates, I highly doubt this was intentional policy
LudwigNagasena 4y ago
> Could you expand what you mean and what you see different in Israel? For example, in the US public discourse you wouldn't find any notion of White Christian Liberal Democracy; if there is any, it is usually thoroughly denied by its alleged supporters and it is allegedly wrapped into layers of dog whistles and innuendos. I didn't want to make any explicit comparisons because they are going to be crude and lacking in their form and content due to the complexity of the topic and the short format of the comment section. So, of course, one can say that the parallels I draw are inadequate and so on because reasons, but the existence of that distinction is kind of my point. > You choose specific dimension to argument (e.g. heritage) living the many dimensions aside. That's the context of the "Statement of Jewish scientists". It is not a statement of Israeli scientists, it is not a statement of American scientists. It is not a statement of scientists qua scientists. So that's what grabbed my attention and what I commented on.

weatherlite 4y ago

Jewish identity gives you a weird vibe? Too bad, there are Jews. They're there. They have an identity. Maybe you'll get over this one day.

LudwigNagasena 4y ago
> Jewish identity gives you a weird vibe? Depends on how it is manifested as it is with any other identity. > They're there Where there? Thinking that Jews should have special rights in Israel by necessity means that Jews should have less rights outside of Israel. You may feel that it is the only self-evident and obviously righteous position, but I don't see why and I don't find your snarkiness justified.
- weatherlite 4y ago
  > Thinking that Jews should have special rights in Israel by necessity means that Jews should have less rights outside of Israel. I Never said that, and I really don't think it follows that Jews outside Israel should have less rights because of what goes on in Israel. Making that implication is considered anti-Semitic which you are obviously not. All I said is that there is a specific Jewish identity just like there is a Palestinian identity. You are welcome to think that Jews should leave Israel or whatever, that still doesn't negate the fact that Jews have a unique identity.
  - LudwigNagasena 4y ago
    > I really don't think it follows that Jews outside Israel should have less rights because of what goes on in Israel. It is just a straightforward tautology. If you think that Israel is a special place wrt to Jews, it implies that every other place is not a special place for Jews, and by necessity provides less privileges and rights to Jews than Israel. > All I said is that there is a specific Jewish identity just like there is a Palestinian identity. You are welcome to think that Jews should leave Israel or whatever, that still doesn't negate the fact that Jews have a unique identity. There are all kinds of identities that appear and evolve with passage of time. I am not sure what’s the point of that trivial remark.