3 ms·

> They all say they do of course, while actually being afraid of doing this because it takes more time and money. That is my experience too with most places -

> They all say they do of course, while actually being afraid of doing this because it takes more time and money. That is my experience too with most places - they say that they support clean, well tested and maintainable code and then turn around and ask things to be delivered in unreasonable time resulting in quick and dirty code. > I also suspect that not focusing on clean code is a strategy many managers have because they can show velocity to their higher ups and get promoted before it all blows up and they’re held responsible. Indeed - furthermore, because the code lacks quality, it requires more effort to manage and (intentionally or not) helps them to demand headcount which requires more managers which results in them building hierarchies, moving up and having their fiefdom. It is a smart approach too in a perverse sense: how will you get to a position managing 100 people if you only delivered with 5 people due to your efficiency? You'll be labeled as "lacks experience managing large orgs".

ornornor 4y ago
So… how do you deal with this on a personal level? How do you retain any shred of sanity or enjoyment from your work? I can’t stand self inflicted toil and the stress from constant firefighting which is invariably the result of these short term policies. It makes me want to quit programming altogether and work in something totally unrelated even though I love programming. Just not the way employers want it.
- jahewson 4y ago
  One option is to work for a company where an important part of the product they make is code itself, e.g. an SDK. Another is to switch to a programming language that tends to attract quality-minded people, e.g Rust, Go, Haskell.
  - kaba0 4y ago
    One is very different from the others. The one whose designer said “ They’re not capable of understanding a brilliant language“
    - jahewson 4y ago
      Ha, well I’d agree with you on that, but even so I’ve seen Go mostly adopted by people who are capable and care.
- eurasiantiger 4y ago
  You stand up and talk about it publicly.
  - ornornor 4y ago
    Who listens, though? Look at seminal work like “the mythical man month”… while most people “in the trenches” agree that nine women can’t make a baby in one month, project managers and executives still very much think it’s possible 40 years later.
    - mvdwoord 4y ago
      You can explain it to them, but you can't understand it for them..
  - benj111 4y ago
    The issue is, managers want these things, like a nice code base, but are unwilling to pay for it. Or more correctly you have to pay most of the cost of that Hodge podge of hacks. So while they can off load that cost to you, why would they make an effort to improve the situation?
    - ornornor 4y ago
      So what do we do? Working this way drives me crazy, depressed, and unhappy; I don’t want to do it anymore. I don’t want to be part of the problem either by becoming one such manager so that others will have to pay the cost of my benefit. What’s left? Opt out, live on shoestring budget for the rest of your life, and hope it works out?
      - jahewson 4y ago
        There are thousands of software engineering jobs out there, how many have you tried? A handful? Increase your sample size.
  - john_the_writer 4y ago
    And you're the first to be let go. The squeaky wheel that irks the bosses.
- noisy_boy 4y ago
  You switch jobs. Of course, there are managers everywhere and of course generally they have similar motivations. However, every once in a while you get one who was a developer-at-heart once (or still is) and does give some amount of shit even when they are looking for their usual goals. If that person doesn't happen to be evil, you stick with that team until things change (maybe the manager moves on). The good thing is that when good managers move, they tend to take the good and trusted ones with them to the new place. Assuming they saw your efforts and value your skills, you can move with them. Alternatively, if they are not the type to do so/you can't move with them, switch again. Either way, side effect is that your pay goes up too due to the switching - just don't do it too frequently.
- ianai 4y ago
  What you described reflects that corporate structure and might be industry wide. They look at code as only valuable in the monetary return it makes. They might even consider it a cost center. That will always be a less than pleasant place to work in an organization. So find places and maybe start at industries that consider their code an asset or profit center. It’s ultimately just a valuation perspective, but understand to a business everything has a market context or business case. It’s can be infuriating, but better to know the system than blindly suffer through it.

ornornor 4y ago

So… how do you deal with this on a personal level? How do you retain any shred of sanity or enjoyment from your work? I can’t stand self inflicted toil and the stress from constant firefighting which is invariably the result of these short term policies. It makes me want to quit programming altogether and work in something totally unrelated even though I love programming. Just not the way employers want it.

jahewson 4y ago
One option is to work for a company where an important part of the product they make is code itself, e.g. an SDK. Another is to switch to a programming language that tends to attract quality-minded people, e.g Rust, Go, Haskell.
- kaba0 4y ago
  One is very different from the others. The one whose designer said “ They’re not capable of understanding a brilliant language“
  - jahewson 4y ago
    Ha, well I’d agree with you on that, but even so I’ve seen Go mostly adopted by people who are capable and care.
eurasiantiger 4y ago
You stand up and talk about it publicly.
- ornornor 4y ago
  Who listens, though? Look at seminal work like “the mythical man month”… while most people “in the trenches” agree that nine women can’t make a baby in one month, project managers and executives still very much think it’s possible 40 years later.
  - mvdwoord 4y ago
    You can explain it to them, but you can't understand it for them..
- benj111 4y ago
  The issue is, managers want these things, like a nice code base, but are unwilling to pay for it. Or more correctly you have to pay most of the cost of that Hodge podge of hacks. So while they can off load that cost to you, why would they make an effort to improve the situation?
  - ornornor 4y ago
    So what do we do? Working this way drives me crazy, depressed, and unhappy; I don’t want to do it anymore. I don’t want to be part of the problem either by becoming one such manager so that others will have to pay the cost of my benefit. What’s left? Opt out, live on shoestring budget for the rest of your life, and hope it works out?
    - jahewson 4y ago
      There are thousands of software engineering jobs out there, how many have you tried? A handful? Increase your sample size.
- john_the_writer 4y ago
  And you're the first to be let go. The squeaky wheel that irks the bosses.
noisy_boy 4y ago
You switch jobs. Of course, there are managers everywhere and of course generally they have similar motivations. However, every once in a while you get one who was a developer-at-heart once (or still is) and does give some amount of shit even when they are looking for their usual goals. If that person doesn't happen to be evil, you stick with that team until things change (maybe the manager moves on). The good thing is that when good managers move, they tend to take the good and trusted ones with them to the new place. Assuming they saw your efforts and value your skills, you can move with them. Alternatively, if they are not the type to do so/you can't move with them, switch again. Either way, side effect is that your pay goes up too due to the switching - just don't do it too frequently.
ianai 4y ago
What you described reflects that corporate structure and might be industry wide. They look at code as only valuable in the monetary return it makes. They might even consider it a cost center. That will always be a less than pleasant place to work in an organization. So find places and maybe start at industries that consider their code an asset or profit center. It’s ultimately just a valuation perspective, but understand to a business everything has a market context or business case. It’s can be infuriating, but better to know the system than blindly suffer through it.