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Totally understand. I know I am more productive at home and everyone on my team feels they are more productive from home too. However, as a team, I also know o

Totally understand. I know I am more productive at home and everyone on my team feels they are more productive from home too. However, as a team, I also know our productivity is subtly down in the last 3 years, because it falls on me to measure these things. I don’t have hard data as to why, but right now my best guess as an explanation for my team is that we see ourselves as more productive when we are head down and cranking, and we are. But outside of those moments, we are not as productive, but we don’t perceive that we aren’t. Unfortunately my team are only heads down about 75% of the time and the productivity losses we feel are happening in that 25% of time and we just don’t notice.

saagarjha 4y ago
> However, as a team, I also know our productivity is subtly down in the last 3 years, because it falls on me to measure these things. How are you doing so?
- oblio 4y ago
  I don't think anyone will share real data. I'd really love for some director level person to spill the beans and provide anonymized data but it's super unlikely.
angoragoats 4y ago
So 75% of the time you're more productive, and in the other 25% of the time you're less productive? You said you don't have hard data as to why, but can you provide some more of the data that shows the productivity loss in the first place? It sounds to me like your net productivity could be break-even, or even higher given the very vague numbers you provided. It's also likely that if the productivity losses occur only in this 25% of the time that you're not "heads-down" as you say, then they could be explained by bad company culture/process which could be worked on, for an easy productivity win across all teams at the company. If you could provide this data it would be very helpful, as it would be the first hard data that I have ever seen showing any kind of productivity loss from being remote.
- kcplate 4y ago
  As I pointed out, it’s all subjective and feelings based. I know our code quality is down and delivery gets delayed more since WFH. Maybe our team is extraordinarily bad at it. But I know some other folks have seen similar things too. We all feel more productive, management might feel we are not. It brings me back to my original point. Management holds the cards and their “feelings” will outweigh the workers in the debate absent of hard data from either side. The workers need to provide the evidence that makes it indisputable that WFH works better. If your company is doing an RTO, you workers have failed to convince their management that WFH is measurably better for the organization.
  - angoragoats 4y ago
    > If your company is doing an RTO, you workers have failed to convince their management that WFH is measurably better for the organization. This argument presumes that management is rational and 100% data-driven, which in some cases I’ve seen gets a big fat [citation needed] from me.
    - NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
      How about "management is motivated by money and success, which for them is strongly correlated to the performance of the company"? But, no, for some reason many HN posters prefer the "management wishes to exercise petty authority over us" reason.
      - angoragoats 4y ago
        I agree with you that upper management is very often motivated by money and success, and I didn't say anything to the contrary. However, I was more getting at the fact that a lot of tech CEO types seem to have a belief that employees being physically present in an office is somehow related to "success" and "performance of the company," when I have yet to see any credible study or data that shows this. So I think that they believe they are acting in the interests of the company, but their beliefs don't seem to be grounded in empirical data.
lupire 4y ago
How do you "know" that? Also, did you know we had a global pandemic recently?
- kcplate 4y ago
  Yes, I’m aware there was a pandemic. Thank you for the smartassery. I know it because our code quality is down (bug reports and defects have increased) and scheduled deliverables are missed more often than prior to the pandemic. Same team, same general workload, same platform and code base. Difference is…we all WFH now due to the pandemic. My point was really more that worker perceptions of their productivity increasing are just as subjective as management’s perception that productivity is decreasing. It’s all just a “feeling”. HN wants to stay WFH because they are more productive and want management to provide facts when they want to RTO, but the workers cannot really provide data to support their claim any more than management can.

saagarjha 4y ago

> However, as a team, I also know our productivity is subtly down in the last 3 years, because it falls on me to measure these things. How are you doing so?

oblio 4y ago
I don't think anyone will share real data. I'd really love for some director level person to spill the beans and provide anonymized data but it's super unlikely.

angoragoats 4y ago

So 75% of the time you're more productive, and in the other 25% of the time you're less productive? You said you don't have hard data as to why, but can you provide some more of the data that shows the productivity loss in the first place? It sounds to me like your net productivity could be break-even, or even higher given the very vague numbers you provided. It's also likely that if the productivity losses occur only in this 25% of the time that you're not "heads-down" as you say, then they could be explained by bad company culture/process which could be worked on, for an easy productivity win across all teams at the company. If you could provide this data it would be very helpful, as it would be the first hard data that I have ever seen showing any kind of productivity loss from being remote.

kcplate 4y ago
As I pointed out, it’s all subjective and feelings based. I know our code quality is down and delivery gets delayed more since WFH. Maybe our team is extraordinarily bad at it. But I know some other folks have seen similar things too. We all feel more productive, management might feel we are not. It brings me back to my original point. Management holds the cards and their “feelings” will outweigh the workers in the debate absent of hard data from either side. The workers need to provide the evidence that makes it indisputable that WFH works better. If your company is doing an RTO, you workers have failed to convince their management that WFH is measurably better for the organization.
- angoragoats 4y ago
  > If your company is doing an RTO, you workers have failed to convince their management that WFH is measurably better for the organization. This argument presumes that management is rational and 100% data-driven, which in some cases I’ve seen gets a big fat [citation needed] from me.
  - NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
    How about "management is motivated by money and success, which for them is strongly correlated to the performance of the company"? But, no, for some reason many HN posters prefer the "management wishes to exercise petty authority over us" reason.
    - angoragoats 4y ago
      I agree with you that upper management is very often motivated by money and success, and I didn't say anything to the contrary. However, I was more getting at the fact that a lot of tech CEO types seem to have a belief that employees being physically present in an office is somehow related to "success" and "performance of the company," when I have yet to see any credible study or data that shows this. So I think that they believe they are acting in the interests of the company, but their beliefs don't seem to be grounded in empirical data.

lupire 4y ago

How do you "know" that? Also, did you know we had a global pandemic recently?

kcplate 4y ago
Yes, I’m aware there was a pandemic. Thank you for the smartassery. I know it because our code quality is down (bug reports and defects have increased) and scheduled deliverables are missed more often than prior to the pandemic. Same team, same general workload, same platform and code base. Difference is…we all WFH now due to the pandemic. My point was really more that worker perceptions of their productivity increasing are just as subjective as management’s perception that productivity is decreasing. It’s all just a “feeling”. HN wants to stay WFH because they are more productive and want management to provide facts when they want to RTO, but the workers cannot really provide data to support their claim any more than management can.