4 ms·

"Collaborating and inventing is easier and more effective when we’re in person" Really? Do you have actual stats to back that claim up? Because the same claim

by olliej 4y ago

"Collaborating and inventing is easier and more effective when we’re in person" Really? Do you have actual stats to back that claim up? Because the same claim is made by a variety of consulting firms about a variety of open office and similar plans that executives love, and literally every single study ever performed by someone who wasn't a consultant being paid to justify making everyone's work environment worse, has shown that they do the exact opposite.

40acres 4y ago
I don’t know how to quantify it but I have definitely noticed an increase in productivity. I don’t need my whole team in the office but a few key people once a week was a game changer.
- olliej 4y ago
  If there's an increase in productivity you should be able to point to it. Otherwise you may just be interpreting "I see people talking" as being "I'm seeing collaboration happening" - essentially experiencing confirmation bias or similar.
- sumthinprofound 4y ago
  this has been my experience as well.
whywhywhywhy 4y ago
Have you even been on a video call? The fact information flows at best 50% speed because of delays, lack of mannerisms and that one person at once can speak and a 2 second gap ends up happening between each statement this slowness is completely tangible to anyone who has tried to get work done with this trash tech. IRL communication that takes seconds to minutes takes 30-40 minutes over a video call.
- ghaff 4y ago
  Pretty much everyone I communicate with is spread out over a great number of locations. Going back to "the office" would mean I did video calls from the office (annoying other people).
  - moomoo3000 4y ago
    "I can't find a room, can we talk tomorrow instead?"
- manuelabeledo 4y ago
  > IRL communication that takes seconds to minutes takes 30-40 minutes over a video call. I know this is hyperbole, but I would seriously question the communication skills of anyone who pretends that in person meetings are indispensable.
- mdorazio 4y ago
  You seem to be in rather shitty video calls. This has not been my experience for ~90% of calls in the last year.
- olliej 4y ago
  ... yes, of course I have been. I have not lived in a magical fairy land for the last few years. From that you can go "oh, maybe the issues I personally have communicating online don't apply to everyone else" rather than saying that I have no experience with what I'm talking about. > IRL communication that takes seconds to minutes takes 30-40 minutes over a video call. That sounds like you have communication issues, not technical ones. If it's something that's going to take just a couple of seconds, why are you having a meeting about it? Why are you not just using irc/slack? It _sounds_ like you're saying that you want to return to the office because if everyone is in the office you can just interrupt other people whenever you have a question - which is one of the single most annoying things about being in the office.
  - cowsandmilk 4y ago
    I’ve found onboarding of new employees to be far more effective in person where you can both see the same screen. Also, while I’ve never actually worked some place that did pair programming, there were a decent number of companies where that was the norm prepandemic and I would argue there’s never been a virtual equivalent that had the same benefits.
  - whywhywhywhy 4y ago
    >That sounds like you have communication issues Cool victim blaming to justify you wanting to sleep in or ignore your coworkers. If I implied you had laziness issues you’d fly off the handle but you’re happy to imply a whole host of mental, competence or physical issues to my communication just because I pointed out video chat has a delay. Think that speaks volumes you’re so gratuitously defensive. I pointed out objective facts you lashed back.
hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
I think this would be an extremely difficult thing to study. Many executive leaders aren't worried about the kind of "rote productivity" metrics that are easily quantifiable. They're worried about a lack of the kind of brainstorming/cultural knowledge sharing/serendipitous insights that occur when people are together and a crucial part of innovation. That is something much more difficult to measure. One study I am aware of (but would have to hunt to find it) found that one of the most critical factors for forming new friendships was frequent, unstructured/unpanned time together. That's a big reason why so many folks form some of their closest friendships in college. Friendships and business relationships aren't exactly the same thing, but wouldn't be surprised if there is a similar dynamic in the workplace.
manuelabeledo 4y ago
They don't, because that's a made up statement. Managerial jobs are essentially meeting people, constantly. When a manager talks about "collaboration" or "invention", they are referring to what they think engineers or creatives produce, thus they are talking about productivity. And because they relate their own "productivity" to meeting people, they assume everyone else does the same. Either that, or they feel the need of getting their office entourage back.
- olliej 4y ago
  I've mentally split the the "mandatory RTO" into three groups: * I'm a manager that wants to know I have control over other people - often phrased as "I need to make sure people are working" and similar * I use work as my primary opportunity for socializing, because socializing is important everyone else must use the office for this as well. I am not saying "all they do is socialize at work", I'm just saying that their primary social interaction is at work. That said I assume this category includes the people who keep interrupting their coworkers in non-office environments * I cannot work outside of a formal atmosphere, and so I don't believe anyone else can either. I feel like the last one could have some overlap with the first (e.g. "I can't work away from the office, therefore no one else can either") and I can't quite work out whether the "you cannot communicate effectively except in person" is more #2 or #3. My distinct impression is for high level management this is more about control - there was an article a few months back where a bunch of managers were handwringing about how WFH meant they were losing the ability to leverage in-office social connections to under pay people (phrased in terms of avoiding people taking jobs for other companies). This one is insidious as it's leveraging the socializing aspects desired by group 2.

by olliej 4y ago

40acres 4y ago

I don’t know how to quantify it but I have definitely noticed an increase in productivity. I don’t need my whole team in the office but a few key people once a week was a game changer.

olliej 4y ago
If there's an increase in productivity you should be able to point to it. Otherwise you may just be interpreting "I see people talking" as being "I'm seeing collaboration happening" - essentially experiencing confirmation bias or similar.
sumthinprofound 4y ago
this has been my experience as well.

whywhywhywhy 4y ago

Have you even been on a video call? The fact information flows at best 50% speed because of delays, lack of mannerisms and that one person at once can speak and a 2 second gap ends up happening between each statement this slowness is completely tangible to anyone who has tried to get work done with this trash tech. IRL communication that takes seconds to minutes takes 30-40 minutes over a video call.

ghaff 4y ago
Pretty much everyone I communicate with is spread out over a great number of locations. Going back to "the office" would mean I did video calls from the office (annoying other people).
- moomoo3000 4y ago
  "I can't find a room, can we talk tomorrow instead?"
manuelabeledo 4y ago
> IRL communication that takes seconds to minutes takes 30-40 minutes over a video call. I know this is hyperbole, but I would seriously question the communication skills of anyone who pretends that in person meetings are indispensable.
mdorazio 4y ago
You seem to be in rather shitty video calls. This has not been my experience for ~90% of calls in the last year.
olliej 4y ago
... yes, of course I have been. I have not lived in a magical fairy land for the last few years. From that you can go "oh, maybe the issues I personally have communicating online don't apply to everyone else" rather than saying that I have no experience with what I'm talking about. > IRL communication that takes seconds to minutes takes 30-40 minutes over a video call. That sounds like you have communication issues, not technical ones. If it's something that's going to take just a couple of seconds, why are you having a meeting about it? Why are you not just using irc/slack? It _sounds_ like you're saying that you want to return to the office because if everyone is in the office you can just interrupt other people whenever you have a question - which is one of the single most annoying things about being in the office.
- cowsandmilk 4y ago
  I’ve found onboarding of new employees to be far more effective in person where you can both see the same screen. Also, while I’ve never actually worked some place that did pair programming, there were a decent number of companies where that was the norm prepandemic and I would argue there’s never been a virtual equivalent that had the same benefits.
- whywhywhywhy 4y ago
  >That sounds like you have communication issues Cool victim blaming to justify you wanting to sleep in or ignore your coworkers. If I implied you had laziness issues you’d fly off the handle but you’re happy to imply a whole host of mental, competence or physical issues to my communication just because I pointed out video chat has a delay. Think that speaks volumes you’re so gratuitously defensive. I pointed out objective facts you lashed back.

hn_throwaway_99 4y ago

I think this would be an extremely difficult thing to study. Many executive leaders aren't worried about the kind of "rote productivity" metrics that are easily quantifiable. They're worried about a lack of the kind of brainstorming/cultural knowledge sharing/serendipitous insights that occur when people are together and a crucial part of innovation. That is something much more difficult to measure. One study I am aware of (but would have to hunt to find it) found that one of the most critical factors for forming new friendships was frequent, unstructured/unpanned time together. That's a big reason why so many folks form some of their closest friendships in college. Friendships and business relationships aren't exactly the same thing, but wouldn't be surprised if there is a similar dynamic in the workplace.

manuelabeledo 4y ago

They don't, because that's a made up statement. Managerial jobs are essentially meeting people, constantly. When a manager talks about "collaboration" or "invention", they are referring to what they think engineers or creatives produce, thus they are talking about productivity. And because they relate their own "productivity" to meeting people, they assume everyone else does the same. Either that, or they feel the need of getting their office entourage back.

olliej 4y ago
I've mentally split the the "mandatory RTO" into three groups: * I'm a manager that wants to know I have control over other people - often phrased as "I need to make sure people are working" and similar * I use work as my primary opportunity for socializing, because socializing is important everyone else must use the office for this as well. I am not saying "all they do is socialize at work", I'm just saying that their primary social interaction is at work. That said I assume this category includes the people who keep interrupting their coworkers in non-office environments * I cannot work outside of a formal atmosphere, and so I don't believe anyone else can either. I feel like the last one could have some overlap with the first (e.g. "I can't work away from the office, therefore no one else can either") and I can't quite work out whether the "you cannot communicate effectively except in person" is more #2 or #3. My distinct impression is for high level management this is more about control - there was an article a few months back where a bunch of managers were handwringing about how WFH meant they were losing the ability to leverage in-office social connections to under pay people (phrased in terms of avoiding people taking jobs for other companies). This one is insidious as it's leveraging the socializing aspects desired by group 2.