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This comment is presumptuous, dismissive, and also wrong. People who write application-like front ends in React (etc.) want back ends that can interoperate with

This comment is presumptuous, dismissive, and also wrong. People who write application-like front ends in React (etc.) want back ends that can interoperate with those front ends. They accomplish things like built-time code generation, static server-side rendering, and other kinds of code transformation that are difficult and flaky without a back end that can understand JS. I have looked for non-tinkertoy solutions in Java and Go. There aren't any, and senior people in those communities are hostile to the very idea. (Maybe remembering Java Nashorn?) Maybe the only people friendly to the idea of interoperable back ends are Rust people (where you have libraries like Yew/Sycamore/Dioxus/Leptos that actively imitate JS frameworks). But yes, your claim is that the only reason to write JS back ends is ignorance and enfeeblement is ignorant and repugnant.

zozbot234 4y ago
> want back ends that can interoperate with those front ends. You can ingest and emit JSON in any language. You can even compile backend-friendly code to run in JS on the frontend, via emscripten (and increasingly, Wasm), which will output very lean and JIT-friendly code. The usual "isomorphic" case for backend.js is no less 'presumptuous' or 'dismissive' than the comment you're pointing to and criticizing here.
- legerdemain 4y ago
  > You can ingest and emit JSON in any language. How is this relevant? Serving a JS application to a client is not like serving a JSON API. > You can even compile backend-friendly code to run in JS on the frontend, via emscripten (and increasingly, Wasm), which will output very lean and JIT-friendly code. Not in my experience. Compared to front-to-back JS, shipping your applications as WASM ends up with downloads and memory footprints that are several times larger than the same application in ordinary JS, and this matters a lot for slower networks and mobile clients. Edit: not to mention that Go has a very limited WASM story, so your "realistic" choices for shipping back end code to the front end are C++ and Rust.
  - d-z-m 4y ago
    > How is this relevant? Serving a JS application to a client is not like serving a JSON API. In some JS applications, the way the frontend code communicates with the backend is via JSON API endpoints. I believe GP was just pointing out that you can write that JSON API in any language you want. > not to mention that Go has a very limited WASM story, so your "realistic" choices for shipping back end code to the front end are C++ and Rust. Can you elaborate on this? How is it limited in comparison to say, Rust.
    - legerdemain 4y ago
      My understanding is that to get reasonable WASM file sizes, one must use tinygo (a C reimplementation). tinygo is a WIP, although I wish I could find a better updated description of what's missing than this page on their site: https://tinygo.org/docs/reference/lang-support/ https://tinygo.org/docs/reference/lang-support/
      - d-z-m 4y ago
        This page[0] seems to have some good information(on stdlib support at least). As far as file sizes go, you're right. It might be possible to get better results deploying a brotli'd or gzipped file instead[1]. [0]:https://tinygo.org/docs/reference/lang-support/stdlib/ https://tinygo.org/docs/reference/lang-support/stdlib/ [1]:https://github.com/golang/go/wiki/WebAssembly#reducing-the-size-of-wasm-files https://github.com/golang/go/wiki/WebAssembly#reducing-the-s...
- nawgz 4y ago
  > The usual "isomorphic" case for backend.js is no less 'presumptuous' or 'dismissive' than the comment you're pointing to and criticizing here > You can even compile backend-friendly code to run in JS on the frontend, via emscripten (and increasingly, Wasm) Lol, you can't be serious
- mardifoufs 4y ago
  >>increasingly, wasm If you are referring to something similar to Blazor (client side), yeah no imo it's pretty awful for anything other than internal enterprise apps. I couldn't imagine running a public facing product on that.
- Zababa 4y ago
  By using Typescript you can share types on the backend and frontend. Java stacks tend to do the same thing but for backend and database by defining data at the ORM level. You can connect to your database in any language, but most people using Spring don't write plain SQL.
brimstedt 4y ago
To clarify my point, I think nodejs is great for the backend part of the view layer and to proxy requests to another backend service. But for business logic, database interactions, calculations, etc, I really think the language construct is to clumsy and does not scale nicely.
ipaddr 4y ago
Your comments tells me you are in the group who doesn't know better. Data is passed in json which is a format other languages can read and send back. If that's your reason for using it you do have other choices.
nasmorn 4y ago
I could understand this reasoning but it is not the typical node backend I am seeing in the wild.

zozbot234 4y ago

> want back ends that can interoperate with those front ends. You can ingest and emit JSON in any language. You can even compile backend-friendly code to run in JS on the frontend, via emscripten (and increasingly, Wasm), which will output very lean and JIT-friendly code. The usual "isomorphic" case for backend.js is no less 'presumptuous' or 'dismissive' than the comment you're pointing to and criticizing here.

legerdemain 4y ago
> You can ingest and emit JSON in any language. How is this relevant? Serving a JS application to a client is not like serving a JSON API. > You can even compile backend-friendly code to run in JS on the frontend, via emscripten (and increasingly, Wasm), which will output very lean and JIT-friendly code. Not in my experience. Compared to front-to-back JS, shipping your applications as WASM ends up with downloads and memory footprints that are several times larger than the same application in ordinary JS, and this matters a lot for slower networks and mobile clients. Edit: not to mention that Go has a very limited WASM story, so your "realistic" choices for shipping back end code to the front end are C++ and Rust.
- d-z-m 4y ago
  > How is this relevant? Serving a JS application to a client is not like serving a JSON API. In some JS applications, the way the frontend code communicates with the backend is via JSON API endpoints. I believe GP was just pointing out that you can write that JSON API in any language you want. > not to mention that Go has a very limited WASM story, so your "realistic" choices for shipping back end code to the front end are C++ and Rust. Can you elaborate on this? How is it limited in comparison to say, Rust.
  - legerdemain 4y ago
    My understanding is that to get reasonable WASM file sizes, one must use tinygo (a C reimplementation). tinygo is a WIP, although I wish I could find a better updated description of what's missing than this page on their site: https://tinygo.org/docs/reference/lang-support/ https://tinygo.org/docs/reference/lang-support/
    - d-z-m 4y ago
      This page[0] seems to have some good information(on stdlib support at least). As far as file sizes go, you're right. It might be possible to get better results deploying a brotli'd or gzipped file instead[1]. [0]:https://tinygo.org/docs/reference/lang-support/stdlib/ https://tinygo.org/docs/reference/lang-support/stdlib/ [1]:https://github.com/golang/go/wiki/WebAssembly#reducing-the-size-of-wasm-files https://github.com/golang/go/wiki/WebAssembly#reducing-the-s...
nawgz 4y ago
> The usual "isomorphic" case for backend.js is no less 'presumptuous' or 'dismissive' than the comment you're pointing to and criticizing here > You can even compile backend-friendly code to run in JS on the frontend, via emscripten (and increasingly, Wasm) Lol, you can't be serious
mardifoufs 4y ago
>>increasingly, wasm If you are referring to something similar to Blazor (client side), yeah no imo it's pretty awful for anything other than internal enterprise apps. I couldn't imagine running a public facing product on that.
Zababa 4y ago
By using Typescript you can share types on the backend and frontend. Java stacks tend to do the same thing but for backend and database by defining data at the ORM level. You can connect to your database in any language, but most people using Spring don't write plain SQL.

brimstedt 4y ago

To clarify my point, I think nodejs is great for the backend part of the view layer and to proxy requests to another backend service. But for business logic, database interactions, calculations, etc, I really think the language construct is to clumsy and does not scale nicely.

ipaddr 4y ago

Your comments tells me you are in the group who doesn't know better. Data is passed in json which is a format other languages can read and send back. If that's your reason for using it you do have other choices.

nasmorn 4y ago

I could understand this reasoning but it is not the typical node backend I am seeing in the wild.