3 ms·

The rebuttal makes some good points. However, many are not going to see the contents of flagged comments nor understand the decisions behind them being so. No

by Tozen 4y ago

The rebuttal makes some good points. However, many are not going to see the contents of flagged comments nor understand the decisions behind them being so. Not to say that flagging isn't justified at times, but scores of posts that are removed with it, are not guilty of the same violation or the posters below the removed comment in violation may not even know what happened. Agree that the OP should be able to provide a link to the shadowbanned thread (if they're not having trouble doing so), because of course you will be able to see it. The context of how shadowban or ghostban is used, is debatably valid. Because the user can see the thread, but it's no longer obviously available to the public. As for showdead, seems doubtful that many would have it turned on or even be looking. Once a thread drops out of sight (likely top 100), seems most won't check (even more so if no comments) unless they are searching for something specific (which could be anything). Possibly a good example of shadowban/ghostban thread, is this recently posted one (below). It also doesn't show as "dead" either, though maybe there is some time element, and can't be seen by the public. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34838236 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34838236 (Robot war dogs commanded by soldiers using brain computer interface [video])

dang 4y ago
I agree with most of your points here. The thing to understand is that these are all tradeoffs. For example, it's true that collapsing flagged subthreads by default is unfair to the users who post substantive comments in that subtree and haven't broken the site guidelines. (Sometimes we rectify this by manually snipping them, so they can go back to the top level, if we see them and they make just as much sense at the top level.) However, it's still a major improvement to thread quality overall to collapse flagged subthreads by default. Moderation is fraught with these tradeoffs, and when we find any major improvement to overall quality, we pretty much have to do it. In this sense we're basically all victims of statistics here. Re https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34838236 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34838236: that got hit by a simple spam filter. Clearly it was a false positive (another tradeoff—no spam filters without false positives). Sorry! I've restored it now*. The funny thing is, I was just looking at that particular filter this afternoon and realized it might need some work—I just haven't had time to review it yet, which involves looking at everything it has killed recently and evaluating whether it's still doing more good than harm. * ("Robot war dogs" is linkbait though, so I've taken that bit out of the title, as the site guidelines ask - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)
- Tozen 4y ago
  The very positive thing is that you fearlessly addressed each point and provided more clarity. This is a positive reflection, because of your willingness to take the time to do such. Users usually don't know the other side, from the administrative point of view, so sometimes this can resolve misunderstandings.
  - dang 4y ago
    I'm glad! Thanks for saying so. It's true, a lot of this stuff doesn't explain itself and HN can be particularly cryptic. We try to make up for that by answering questions whenever people have them.
    - 0x7ce 4y ago
      The evidence where you pretty much admitted that you ghostbanned my main after mass reports (which could have 99% been in bad faith and/or bots) flagged me and then you judged Me to be guilty of wrongthought and taken my away link posting ability has been posted above.
      - dang 4y ago
        You're going to have to be more specific if you want a response. I really don't know what you're talking about. We're dealing with far too many users and posts to remember anything for very long. I don't mind answering questions (if you have one?) but I need links. Also, links let any interested reader check what happened for themselves and make up their own mind. That's important, since the community is the jury here. Edit: ah ok, you mean https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34853852 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34853852. I've answered there.

by Tozen 4y ago

dang 4y ago

I agree with most of your points here. The thing to understand is that these are all tradeoffs. For example, it's true that collapsing flagged subthreads by default is unfair to the users who post substantive comments in that subtree and haven't broken the site guidelines. (Sometimes we rectify this by manually snipping them, so they can go back to the top level, if we see them and they make just as much sense at the top level.) However, it's still a major improvement to thread quality overall to collapse flagged subthreads by default. Moderation is fraught with these tradeoffs, and when we find any major improvement to overall quality, we pretty much have to do it. In this sense we're basically all victims of statistics here. Re https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34838236 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34838236: that got hit by a simple spam filter. Clearly it was a false positive (another tradeoff—no spam filters without false positives). Sorry! I've restored it now*. The funny thing is, I was just looking at that particular filter this afternoon and realized it might need some work—I just haven't had time to review it yet, which involves looking at everything it has killed recently and evaluating whether it's still doing more good than harm. * ("Robot war dogs" is linkbait though, so I've taken that bit out of the title, as the site guidelines ask - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

Tozen 4y ago
The very positive thing is that you fearlessly addressed each point and provided more clarity. This is a positive reflection, because of your willingness to take the time to do such. Users usually don't know the other side, from the administrative point of view, so sometimes this can resolve misunderstandings.
- dang 4y ago
  I'm glad! Thanks for saying so. It's true, a lot of this stuff doesn't explain itself and HN can be particularly cryptic. We try to make up for that by answering questions whenever people have them.
  - 0x7ce 4y ago
    The evidence where you pretty much admitted that you ghostbanned my main after mass reports (which could have 99% been in bad faith and/or bots) flagged me and then you judged Me to be guilty of wrongthought and taken my away link posting ability has been posted above.
    - dang 4y ago
      You're going to have to be more specific if you want a response. I really don't know what you're talking about. We're dealing with far too many users and posts to remember anything for very long. I don't mind answering questions (if you have one?) but I need links. Also, links let any interested reader check what happened for themselves and make up their own mind. That's important, since the community is the jury here. Edit: ah ok, you mean https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34853852 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34853852. I've answered there.