4 ms·

My guess is Amazon is using the current layoff frenzy in the industry as an opportunity to end remote work with minimal resistance from workers. They also know

My guess is Amazon is using the current layoff frenzy in the industry as an opportunity to end remote work with minimal resistance from workers. They also know and accept that many people will choose to leave: the attrition acts as a layoff but without nearly as bad of a PR hit. I'm biased as a remote worker (and I'm more than a little nervous from all the recent RTO mandates), but this shift doesn't feel connected to reality. Teams have changed a lot in the last 3 years. For many people, teams and coworkers are distributed more than ever, not just remote vs. office but also in different regions of the world. Sitting in an office doesn't add value when most of your meetings are still virtual. I would think if there was real data to support the return to office, this email would have included it. Instead, it just includes some truisms like "teams tend to be better connected to one another when they see each other in person more frequently." There's no concrete data on whether this leads to more productivity across the company. The cynic in me believes this is about reasserting control over workers and justifying large real estate investments.

y-c-o-m-b 4y ago
Those of us that went through this during the great recession and Marissa Mayer years recognize it well. This is definitely a stealth layoff. Intel is known for infamously using this tactic. There's for sure an element of power play here too, so yeah reasserting control is a good bet. I would not be surprised if there's considerable tax and accounting loopholes that enable this kind of behavior as well.
ghaff 4y ago
Amazon's hired people remotely. People have moved away from Amazon offices and bought homes. Etc. Perhaps some of that is covered by a small number of exceptions but it wouldn't surprise me if a substantial number end up leaving or getting fired.
- dangwhy 4y ago
  > Amazon's hired people remotely. I don't think they hired people fully remote. My 'remote offer' was still tied to chicago office, with expectation that i'll be back in office at some point.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    They absolutely have in the past. I know the person who used to head developer marketing there and he was always remote. Also know one their trainers (though that's really a field position so probably wouldn't be covered).
    - dangwhy 4y ago
      ah got it. My offer was towards the end of pandemic so it was understood that they will require rto at some point.
  - y-c-o-m-b 4y ago
    Mine is fully remote. I have no office attachment and I made sure to emphasize under no circumstances can they ever attach me to an office. Half of my team is setup this way in fact and many of us have no office within reasonable driving distance nor anyone to collaborate with since we're all distributed across the US. I got hired last year btw EDIT: Looking at PhoneTool, our "office" location is stated as "Virtual Office - <State>". So "Virtual Office - Texas" for example for someone hired fully remote in Texas.
  - base698 4y ago
    I was fully remote with virtual office.
- dividefuel 4y ago
  I think that's the goal. I think Amazon wants to downsize more, but they know that repeated waves of layoffs look bad to investors. Plus, they want to end remote work. Mandating RTO lets them solve both. 2.5 months also isn't very much time to relocate if necessary. Amazon could easily have given a MUCH longer transition period. It's quite cruel to workers, many of whom have planned their medium/long term around remote work.
  - bootwoot 4y ago
    Investors love layoffs thus far. Has this generally not been the case in the past? Or specifically repeated rounds are not taken well?
  - ghaff 4y ago
    Even if you're renting, you probably have a lease. And would you bet on Amazon covering relocation? And how many people now have a partner with a non-remote job? Or kids in school somewhere? Even if there are a few exceptions, the whole tone of the letter is "Don't count on it." He could easily have written: "If you don't live within commuting distance of an Amazon office, your manager will work with you over the next X months to develop a RTO plan for you."
  - Cyph0n 4y ago
    They could’ve easily extended the deadline a few months to make it easier for families to relocate after school ends. The deadline seems intentional.
  - sbrother 4y ago
    Oh wow they won’t even let your kids finish the school year before making you move? So they don’t actually intend people to relocate, they just want more attrition it sounds like.

y-c-o-m-b 4y ago

Those of us that went through this during the great recession and Marissa Mayer years recognize it well. This is definitely a stealth layoff. Intel is known for infamously using this tactic. There's for sure an element of power play here too, so yeah reasserting control is a good bet. I would not be surprised if there's considerable tax and accounting loopholes that enable this kind of behavior as well.

ghaff 4y ago

Amazon's hired people remotely. People have moved away from Amazon offices and bought homes. Etc. Perhaps some of that is covered by a small number of exceptions but it wouldn't surprise me if a substantial number end up leaving or getting fired.

dangwhy 4y ago
> Amazon's hired people remotely. I don't think they hired people fully remote. My 'remote offer' was still tied to chicago office, with expectation that i'll be back in office at some point.
- ghaff 4y ago
  They absolutely have in the past. I know the person who used to head developer marketing there and he was always remote. Also know one their trainers (though that's really a field position so probably wouldn't be covered).
  - dangwhy 4y ago
    ah got it. My offer was towards the end of pandemic so it was understood that they will require rto at some point.
- y-c-o-m-b 4y ago
  Mine is fully remote. I have no office attachment and I made sure to emphasize under no circumstances can they ever attach me to an office. Half of my team is setup this way in fact and many of us have no office within reasonable driving distance nor anyone to collaborate with since we're all distributed across the US. I got hired last year btw EDIT: Looking at PhoneTool, our "office" location is stated as "Virtual Office - <State>". So "Virtual Office - Texas" for example for someone hired fully remote in Texas.
- base698 4y ago
  I was fully remote with virtual office.
dividefuel 4y ago
I think that's the goal. I think Amazon wants to downsize more, but they know that repeated waves of layoffs look bad to investors. Plus, they want to end remote work. Mandating RTO lets them solve both. 2.5 months also isn't very much time to relocate if necessary. Amazon could easily have given a MUCH longer transition period. It's quite cruel to workers, many of whom have planned their medium/long term around remote work.
- bootwoot 4y ago
  Investors love layoffs thus far. Has this generally not been the case in the past? Or specifically repeated rounds are not taken well?
- ghaff 4y ago
  Even if you're renting, you probably have a lease. And would you bet on Amazon covering relocation? And how many people now have a partner with a non-remote job? Or kids in school somewhere? Even if there are a few exceptions, the whole tone of the letter is "Don't count on it." He could easily have written: "If you don't live within commuting distance of an Amazon office, your manager will work with you over the next X months to develop a RTO plan for you."
- Cyph0n 4y ago
  They could’ve easily extended the deadline a few months to make it easier for families to relocate after school ends. The deadline seems intentional.
- sbrother 4y ago
  Oh wow they won’t even let your kids finish the school year before making you move? So they don’t actually intend people to relocate, they just want more attrition it sounds like.