4 ms·

I don't think it's fair of you to characterize my comment as "ridiculous". I'll focus on the US, specifically, since that's where I'm from and is the society I'

by lumb63 4y ago

I don't think it's fair of you to characterize my comment as "ridiculous". I'll focus on the US, specifically, since that's where I'm from and is the society I'm most familiar with. I am glad you used the example of black women. Race is irrelevant to the conversation at hand (though I would note, lest I am called insensitive, that black individuals are disadvantaged in health). You're using race to divert attention: your statistic actually compares black vs. white and ignores men vs. women. Why don't you compare men to women, or black men to black women, or white men to white women? Is it maybe because white men (who have the highest life expectancy among men in the US) have a lower life expectancy than white women, all women, and black women [0]? And those men have a 0% risk of death during childbirth! They're making up for it by having a higher chance of dying than women, every single year of their life, up until age 80, when women outpace them because there are so few men left [1]. When you compare apples to apples, men draw the short end of the stick, in terms of life expectancy at least. And despite the above inequity, if you go to the CDC website and look at death rates, what do you see along the sidebar [2]? "Racism and Health", "Women and Health", "Conversations in Equity", "Health Equity Matters Newsletter". At least the CDC is more interested in helping black people and women than they are men, despite that men have the disadvantage here against both categories statistically, even if they're stacked together, i.e. black women. Research into health does not need to be a black vs. white, women vs. men, issue. There is a lot of work to be done for the common good. But to say that "the healthcare system prioritises women over men doesn't stand up to any scrutiny" is false. Fertility is actually a fantastic example where men are disadvantaged compared to women, at least with respect to birth control. Birth control is harmful. But those who use it, choose to do so. In other words, they think it is best for them, and make that decision. Women have the options of A) not using birth control, being possibly subject to unwanted pregnancy, and not being subject to its harms B) using birth control, avoiding unwanted pregnancy, and being subject to its harms. Men have the options of A) not using birth control, being possibly subject to unwanted pregnancy, and not being subject to its harms B) not using birth control, being possibly subject to unwanted pregnancy, and not being subject to its harms. Note that there are no options. Note that this also does not include the harms to men due to child support payments for children they had no way to prevent. By the time the average woman experiences menopause (age 51 [3]) and has "an awful experience with very little medical support available", 8.2% of men born at the same time have already died, compared to 4.7% for women [4]. During the years surrounding menopause (45-64; I'd like to be more precise, but this is the granularity given to me), men are more than three times as likely to kill themselves [5]. The living men aren't getting the medical support they need, and the extra dead men certainly didn't. We can also talk about other sex-related issues such as breast vs. prostate cancer, if you want. They have similar death rates of 19.6 and 18.8 percent respectively [6, 7], but breast cancer research receives twice the funding of prostate cancer research [8]. Why would this be, if our healthcare system doesn't prioritise women over men? I asserted that nobody cared about the impacts that lower testosterone levels and sperm counts could have with respect to men, based on an article that framed it as a "societal problem" and a "fertility problem", and did not acknowledge any of the challenges this specifically poses to men, which I listed in my original post. I pointed out my opinion that society would respond differently if the issue impacted women. You responded by telling me how black women are more likely to die during childbirth than white women, that a country where women live more than 5 years longer than men [9] prioritises men's health care, and that women are at a disadvantage because they have an option they can choose to reduce their risk of unwanted pregnancy, with health tradeoffs. Please rethink whose comment, yours or mine, is ridiculous. [0]: https://cfpub.epa.gov/roe/indicator.cfm?i=70 https://cfpub.epa.gov/roe/indicator.cfm?i=70 [1]: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/mortality/gmwk310.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/mortality/gmwk310.htm [2]: https://www.cdc.gov/minorityhealth/lcod/men/2018/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/minorityhealth/lcod/men/2018/index.html [3]: https://www.everydayhealth.com/menopause/at-what-age-will-you-enter-menopause.aspx https://www.everydayhealth.com/menopause/at-what-age-will-yo... [4]: https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html [5]: https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/suicide https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/suicide [6]: https://seer.cancer.gov/statfacts/html/breast.html https://seer.cancer.gov/statfacts/html/breast.html [7]: https://seer.cancer.gov/statfacts/html/prost.html https://seer.cancer.gov/statfacts/html/prost.html [8]: https://www.cancer.gov/about-nci/budget/fact-book/data/research-funding https://www.cancer.gov/about-nci/budget/fact-book/data/resea... [9]: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/vsrr/VSRR10-508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/vsrr/VSRR10-508.pdf

phphphphp 4y ago
There's so much I could say in response to your points, but you're too deeply entrenched in your position so I'm not going to spend any time on a response other than to say reliance upon the gender-based suicide success figures is a tell for someone who is cherry-picking data: it's not an honest argument. The difference in men and women's suicide rate is not a reflection on men being more suicidal, in fact, men attempt suicide at a lower rate than women! Men are less suicidal than women! The difference is that if a man attempts suicide, he is much more likely to succeed, whereas women are much more likely to survive. If you want to use suicide as a measure of gender-based wellbeing, success is a meaningless statistic[1], because it's a reflection of metholodgy... suicidal ideation and suicide attempts are a much better measure of wellbeing. See Figure 7 on your own link: https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/suicide https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/suicide [1] Unless, I guess, you want to go down some sort of line of thinking where women are attempting suicide for attention and "know" they'll survive so actually it doesn't count and men's use of more violent means is actually proof that men are suffering more.
- lumb63 4y ago
  It's convenient that you ignored the majority of my post because I am "too deeply entrenched", and then cherry-picked its one weak point while claiming I am cherry-picking and dishonest. I'll try the same tactic next time I disagree with someone. We can try a different measure of health if you'd like. Surely I cannot be cherry-picking data if the effect is visible across multiple categories, right? Going down the list of highest-cause-of-death [0], death rates per 100,000 here [1] (sorry, hard to find more up-to-date data including age-adjusted rates of death by cause and gender): Heart Disease (23.1% of deaths): Men 298.9, Women 210.4 (men 42% more likely) Cancer (21.0% of deaths): Men 217.5, Women 151.3 (men 44% more likely) Accidents (6.1% of deaths): Men 55.2, Women 25.8 (men 114% more likely) Chronic lower respiratory diseases (5.5% of deaths): Men 48.0, Women 36.0 (men 33% more likely) Cerebrovascular disease (5.3% of deaths): Men 42.5, Women 41.3 (men 3% more likely) Alzheimers disease (4.3% of deaths): Men 18.5, 24.9 (women 35% more likely) Diabetes mellitus (3.1% of deaths): Men 26.4, Women 19.5 (men 35% more likely) Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis (1.8% of deaths): Men 17.8, Women 12.5 (men 42% more likely) Influenza and pneumonia (1.7% of deaths): Men 19.3, Women 14.2 (men 36% more likely) Intentional self-harm (suicide) (1.7% of deaths): Men 18.4, Women 4.7 (men 291% more likely) If female suicide attempts (0.6%/yr) resulted in death as often as male suicide attempts (0.4%/yr), from the above cited Figure 7, we would see an increase of 27.6 deaths per 100,000 in women. Let's look at death rates per 100,000 in 2021 [2]. Comparing people of the same race, the age-adjusted death rate per 100,000 people for men was 304.7 higher for whites, 458.3 for blacks, 187.0 for Asians, 480.9 for Native Americans, and 315.8 for Hispanics. Weighting that by demographics [4], that averages 320.4. Let me put that statistic a few different ways for you: If women were as effective as men at suicide, every successful female suicide would need to include her killing 10 other same-age women to equalize the age-adjusted death rate between men and women for all causes. The difference in age-adjusted death rate between men and women is larger in magnitude than if there were a second, equally fatal, heart disease, that only impacted men. Do you still think I am cherry-picking? [0] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr70/nvsr70-09-508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr70/nvsr70-09-508.pdf [1]: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/MortFinal2007_WorkTable293.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/MortFinal2007_WorkTable293... [2]: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db456-tables.pdf#2 https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db456-tables.pdf#2

by lumb63 4y ago

phphphphp 4y ago

There's so much I could say in response to your points, but you're too deeply entrenched in your position so I'm not going to spend any time on a response other than to say reliance upon the gender-based suicide success figures is a tell for someone who is cherry-picking data: it's not an honest argument. The difference in men and women's suicide rate is not a reflection on men being more suicidal, in fact, men attempt suicide at a lower rate than women! Men are less suicidal than women! The difference is that if a man attempts suicide, he is much more likely to succeed, whereas women are much more likely to survive. If you want to use suicide as a measure of gender-based wellbeing, success is a meaningless statistic[1], because it's a reflection of metholodgy... suicidal ideation and suicide attempts are a much better measure of wellbeing. See Figure 7 on your own link: https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/suicide https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/suicide [1] Unless, I guess, you want to go down some sort of line of thinking where women are attempting suicide for attention and "know" they'll survive so actually it doesn't count and men's use of more violent means is actually proof that men are suffering more.

lumb63 4y ago
It's convenient that you ignored the majority of my post because I am "too deeply entrenched", and then cherry-picked its one weak point while claiming I am cherry-picking and dishonest. I'll try the same tactic next time I disagree with someone. We can try a different measure of health if you'd like. Surely I cannot be cherry-picking data if the effect is visible across multiple categories, right? Going down the list of highest-cause-of-death [0], death rates per 100,000 here [1] (sorry, hard to find more up-to-date data including age-adjusted rates of death by cause and gender): Heart Disease (23.1% of deaths): Men 298.9, Women 210.4 (men 42% more likely) Cancer (21.0% of deaths): Men 217.5, Women 151.3 (men 44% more likely) Accidents (6.1% of deaths): Men 55.2, Women 25.8 (men 114% more likely) Chronic lower respiratory diseases (5.5% of deaths): Men 48.0, Women 36.0 (men 33% more likely) Cerebrovascular disease (5.3% of deaths): Men 42.5, Women 41.3 (men 3% more likely) Alzheimers disease (4.3% of deaths): Men 18.5, 24.9 (women 35% more likely) Diabetes mellitus (3.1% of deaths): Men 26.4, Women 19.5 (men 35% more likely) Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis (1.8% of deaths): Men 17.8, Women 12.5 (men 42% more likely) Influenza and pneumonia (1.7% of deaths): Men 19.3, Women 14.2 (men 36% more likely) Intentional self-harm (suicide) (1.7% of deaths): Men 18.4, Women 4.7 (men 291% more likely) If female suicide attempts (0.6%/yr) resulted in death as often as male suicide attempts (0.4%/yr), from the above cited Figure 7, we would see an increase of 27.6 deaths per 100,000 in women. Let's look at death rates per 100,000 in 2021 [2]. Comparing people of the same race, the age-adjusted death rate per 100,000 people for men was 304.7 higher for whites, 458.3 for blacks, 187.0 for Asians, 480.9 for Native Americans, and 315.8 for Hispanics. Weighting that by demographics [4], that averages 320.4. Let me put that statistic a few different ways for you: If women were as effective as men at suicide, every successful female suicide would need to include her killing 10 other same-age women to equalize the age-adjusted death rate between men and women for all causes. The difference in age-adjusted death rate between men and women is larger in magnitude than if there were a second, equally fatal, heart disease, that only impacted men. Do you still think I am cherry-picking? [0] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr70/nvsr70-09-508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr70/nvsr70-09-508.pdf [1]: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/MortFinal2007_WorkTable293.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/MortFinal2007_WorkTable293... [2]: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db456-tables.pdf#2 https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db456-tables.pdf#2