7 ms·

Why is error reporting telemetry bad? Im really lost at why this is such a big deal. They're not collecting personal info. They are just looking to make the pro

Why is error reporting telemetry bad? Im really lost at why this is such a big deal. They're not collecting personal info. They are just looking to make the product better.

rightbyte 4y ago
Unless it is opt-in it is spyware. You can't trust devs that have such bad judgement that they would even think about doing it opt-out with the opt-in data either.
sneak 4y ago
When, where, and how you use your tools is personal info, even if your name is not put on the data.
- Entinel 4y ago
  This is not true legally. If there is no way to link back to you personally then it is not PII.
  - Ruthalas 4y ago
    Correct me if I am wrong, but it's going to be tied to your IP address. So it will be tied to a unique identifier.
    - dspillett 4y ago
      As has been repeatedly argued in cases of IP-rights-holders-vs-sharers, an IP address on its own does not identify an individual. We argue that both ways depending on what suits us at the time, or we are as bad as the music industry flipping between “you bought the CD” and “you licensed the music” when it suits them to.
      - Ruthalas 4y ago
        That's fair. (Though I certainly haven't argued it either way previously myself.) I do think it makes your statement that cannot, "be linked back to you personally", a little less absolute.
        dspillett 4y ago
        That was someone-else's statement, not mine. My take: An IP address is usually not, in fact almost always not, PII on its own, but there are circumstances where it is part of a package of data that is PII, and others where it could be considered “circumstantial PII”.
      - Nullabillity 4y ago
        There's a huge difference between "identifiable enough to be legal evidence" and "identifiable enough to be unethical to collect".
      - Timon3 4y ago
        This is only true in certain jurisdictions. The GDPR recitals specifically mention IP addresses as examples of personal data: > Natural persons may be associated with online identifiers provided by their devices, applications, tools and protocols, such as internet protocol addresses, cookie identifiers or other identifiers such as radio frequency identification tags. This may leave traces which, in particular when combined with unique identifiers and other information received by the servers, may be used to create profiles of the natural persons and identify them. from https://gdpr.eu/recital-30-online-identifiers-for-profiling-and-identification/ https://gdpr.eu/recital-30-online-identifiers-for-profiling-... Further support for this interpretation in case the above comes off as "only if combined with other data": https://commission.europa.eu/law/law-topic/data-protection/reform/what-personal-data_en https://commission.europa.eu/law/law-topic/data-protection/r...
  - sneak 4y ago
    I didn't say it was personally identifiable. I said it was personal info; i.e. yours.
noman-land 4y ago
I just wanna live my god damn life in peace instead of wondering if my belongings are leaking data about me. If I want to help the developers debug their app for free I will decide on my own when and how to do that. I consider any breach of these desires to be ideologically repugnant and indicative of an extreme disrespect for users of your app.
- anaganisk 4y ago
  But they are not even taking your data or asking you to debug, thats the point. They want to collect the errors themselves and improve the product.
- Entinel 4y ago
  > If I want to help the developers debug their app for free I will decide on my own when and how to do that. You say this like you pay for the app. Audacity is free.
  - stonogo 4y ago
    Whether or not I paid for the app and whether or not I want to help debug it are two completely separate and unrelated questions.
    - Entinel 4y ago
      They aren't though. You say "help debug it" as if you are actually lifting a finger to help. In reality, you have a problem that a company provides you an app for free and wants your anonymous data to help improve it. Something that cost you nothing in terms of time or money. Also something you can opt out of if you find that agreement disagreeable for whatever reason.
      - wizzwizz4 4y ago
        > In reality, you have a problem that a company provides you an app for free and wants your anonymous data to help improve it. No, in reality, you have a company that bought the branding of a piece of free software. They didn't make Audacity. They contributed to versions 3.0 through 3.2.1 (which I've, personally, never used). They had nothing to do with the award-winning version 1.3.x, nor anything up to 2.4.2. I'm not against companies taking on the maintenance of free software projects – provided it's not an Embrace Extend Extinguish ruse –, but throwing money around wouldn't entitle one to claim credit. (I'm not aware of Muse Group claiming credit for Audacity, but if anyone is pulling a stunt like that, I would like to write them a strongly-worded letter.)
croes 4y ago
Data traffic without consent is bad.

Why is error reporting telemetry bad? Im really lost at why this is such a big deal. They're not collecting personal info. They are just looking to make the product better.

rightbyte 4y ago

Unless it is opt-in it is spyware. You can't trust devs that have such bad judgement that they would even think about doing it opt-out with the opt-in data either.

sneak 4y ago

When, where, and how you use your tools is personal info, even if your name is not put on the data.

Entinel 4y ago
This is not true legally. If there is no way to link back to you personally then it is not PII.
- Ruthalas 4y ago
  Correct me if I am wrong, but it's going to be tied to your IP address. So it will be tied to a unique identifier.
  - dspillett 4y ago
    As has been repeatedly argued in cases of IP-rights-holders-vs-sharers, an IP address on its own does not identify an individual. We argue that both ways depending on what suits us at the time, or we are as bad as the music industry flipping between “you bought the CD” and “you licensed the music” when it suits them to.
    - Ruthalas 4y ago
      That's fair. (Though I certainly haven't argued it either way previously myself.) I do think it makes your statement that cannot, "be linked back to you personally", a little less absolute.
      - dspillett 4y ago
        That was someone-else's statement, not mine. My take: An IP address is usually not, in fact almost always not, PII on its own, but there are circumstances where it is part of a package of data that is PII, and others where it could be considered “circumstantial PII”.
    - Nullabillity 4y ago
      There's a huge difference between "identifiable enough to be legal evidence" and "identifiable enough to be unethical to collect".
    - Timon3 4y ago
      This is only true in certain jurisdictions. The GDPR recitals specifically mention IP addresses as examples of personal data: > Natural persons may be associated with online identifiers provided by their devices, applications, tools and protocols, such as internet protocol addresses, cookie identifiers or other identifiers such as radio frequency identification tags. This may leave traces which, in particular when combined with unique identifiers and other information received by the servers, may be used to create profiles of the natural persons and identify them. from https://gdpr.eu/recital-30-online-identifiers-for-profiling-and-identification/ https://gdpr.eu/recital-30-online-identifiers-for-profiling-... Further support for this interpretation in case the above comes off as "only if combined with other data": https://commission.europa.eu/law/law-topic/data-protection/reform/what-personal-data_en https://commission.europa.eu/law/law-topic/data-protection/r...
- sneak 4y ago
  I didn't say it was personally identifiable. I said it was personal info; i.e. yours.

noman-land 4y ago

I just wanna live my god damn life in peace instead of wondering if my belongings are leaking data about me. If I want to help the developers debug their app for free I will decide on my own when and how to do that. I consider any breach of these desires to be ideologically repugnant and indicative of an extreme disrespect for users of your app.

anaganisk 4y ago
But they are not even taking your data or asking you to debug, thats the point. They want to collect the errors themselves and improve the product.
Entinel 4y ago
> If I want to help the developers debug their app for free I will decide on my own when and how to do that. You say this like you pay for the app. Audacity is free.
- stonogo 4y ago
  Whether or not I paid for the app and whether or not I want to help debug it are two completely separate and unrelated questions.
  - Entinel 4y ago
    They aren't though. You say "help debug it" as if you are actually lifting a finger to help. In reality, you have a problem that a company provides you an app for free and wants your anonymous data to help improve it. Something that cost you nothing in terms of time or money. Also something you can opt out of if you find that agreement disagreeable for whatever reason.
    - wizzwizz4 4y ago
      > In reality, you have a problem that a company provides you an app for free and wants your anonymous data to help improve it. No, in reality, you have a company that bought the branding of a piece of free software. They didn't make Audacity. They contributed to versions 3.0 through 3.2.1 (which I've, personally, never used). They had nothing to do with the award-winning version 1.3.x, nor anything up to 2.4.2. I'm not against companies taking on the maintenance of free software projects – provided it's not an Embrace Extend Extinguish ruse –, but throwing money around wouldn't entitle one to claim credit. (I'm not aware of Muse Group claiming credit for Audacity, but if anyone is pulling a stunt like that, I would like to write them a strongly-worded letter.)

croes 4y ago

Data traffic without consent is bad.