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When I was at AWS around 2018, well before the pandemic, I worked on a team that was structured as remote first. I spent two days appx in the office a week beca

When I was at AWS around 2018, well before the pandemic, I worked on a team that was structured as remote first. I spent two days appx in the office a week because I had an easy commute and it was nicer than my two bed apartment I shared with a roommate at times. We worked with IT to get a videoconference setup going where we could all hang out on Chime together for hours and hours through the workday. We did a lot of good work and had a manager who cared a lot about the ability for his team to have the flexibility they need to do their best work. And they did do their best work remote, with multiple team members living miles and miles from any corporate location. We had quarterlyish meetups and hung out at conferences together. We retained talent we couldn't have otherwise. That Amazon doesn't trust its managers to make these decisions best for their two-pizza scope says a lot about the hierarchy of the company. Also can't forget the environmental and economic impacts of more commuting, especially in what could still be considered a wartime energy market.

hahahbsahaha 4y ago
He worked for AWS and he lived with roommates. Welcome to the Seattle utopia ladies and gentlemen. Maybe Amazon should also ensure employer safety while commuting/walking to the office. Since downtown is becoming a safety risk.
- elseweather 4y ago
  > Maybe Amazon should also ensure employer safety while commuting/walking to the office. I've never looked into it myself, but they do advertise a service like this around the Seattle offices
- photon12 4y ago
  I had a friend I was helping get settled in Seattle who moved from the small town we both grew up in by sharing rent, it was a voluntary choice. And my roommate had lots more job opportunities than where we grew up and now he's doing really well, and I'm grateful Seattle offered that to him. Kinda off topic though?
- oblio 4y ago
  > He worked for AWS and he lived with roommates. Welcome to the Seattle utopia ladies and gentlemen. Maybe he was saving a ton of money?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
chmod600 4y ago
"That Amazon doesn't trust its managers to make these decisions" Leaving it up to managers is wrong. The employment agreement is with Amazon, and they need to make sure that material parts of it are administered fairly. Not that there's no room for subdivisions or whatever to make some policy here, but Amazon really does need to weigh in on the topic.
- photon12 4y ago
  "Wrong" seems overly absolute, as evidenced by my experience. This is going to impact retention in mission critical, "keep the lights on and keep regulators from levying big fines" adjacent departments. I don't see how holding people accountable to outcomes implies the need for a strict policy.
dnissley 4y ago
> We worked with IT to get a videoconference setup going where we could all hang out on Chime together for hours and hours through the workday Something like this might actually make remote work bearable to me, but the feeling I get is that this is not what most remote workers want. Am I wrong?
- clnq 4y ago
  I've seen this work very well in one company and fail several times in another. For many people, being reachable and interruptible constantly is the worst part of office work. So they don't want to replicate it digitally. Others appreciate the constant communication.
- photon12 4y ago
  It was optional, you could keep your camera off or not join ever if you wanted. When I was remote, I usually didn't join and just kept in touch on Chime text rooms unless my tasks that day needed a higher level of coordination.
brucethemoose2 4y ago
> Amazon doesn't trust its managers I don't think its (primarily) about manager trust: - Companies don't want the financial hit of large HQs staying empty because of some specific arbitrary regulations/requirements. - Going by CEOs' statements and seemingly coordinated actions, there is cultural stigma against remote work, implying that its unproductive, lazy, or whatever, hence these blanket policies read more like political statements than measured, data driven responses.
- lennixm 4y ago
  > Companies don't want the financial hit of large HQs staying empty because of some specific arbitrary regulations/requirements. This argument needs to stop. The financial hit of paying for office properties is orders of magnitude higher than any sort of lease break fee or regulation penalty. If these huge tech companies could safe money by getting rid of their office locations in favor of remote work they would do it in a heartbeat. Forcing people to come back to the office due to some sunk-cost-fallacy for paying for office space makes zero sense. > Going by CEOs' statements and seemingly coordinated actions, there is cultural stigma against remote work, implying that its unproductive, lazy, or whatever, hence these blanket policies read more like political statements than measured, data driven responses. The CEO of Amazon doesn't make a decision of this magnitude based on a whim. They'll have mountains of productivity data on remote work by now and it even says so in the post.
  - brucethemoose2 4y ago
    Its not just that its a sunk cost, they need some headquarters, and selling the old one and downsizing is a massive endeavor.
  - Mikushi 4y ago
    > The CEO of Amazon doesn't make a decision of this magnitude based on a whim. They'll have mountains of productivity data on remote work by now and it even says so in the post. If it says so it must be true. There's no data in that post, just platitudes management like to use about collaboration and creativity that is absolute BS. Shame I left the company I was at during the pandemic because I could dig the data but there was a very clear 20% sustained benefit in terms of productivity when WFH: faster to close tickets, bigger releases, less bugs. Did culture suffer? Yes. Did it matter, no, because culture is some vague notion only HR and senior management cares about, or at least pretends to. They still mandated RTO in the end, which cost them half of their more senior engineers, positions they still have not managed to fill, what a surprise when you want to force people through unproductive hoops. I now work in a remote first company and in 16 years of career it's the most productive team I've been part of, shit gets done at all levels more so than in any other company I've been part of.

hahahbsahaha 4y ago

He worked for AWS and he lived with roommates. Welcome to the Seattle utopia ladies and gentlemen. Maybe Amazon should also ensure employer safety while commuting/walking to the office. Since downtown is becoming a safety risk.

elseweather 4y ago
> Maybe Amazon should also ensure employer safety while commuting/walking to the office. I've never looked into it myself, but they do advertise a service like this around the Seattle offices
photon12 4y ago
I had a friend I was helping get settled in Seattle who moved from the small town we both grew up in by sharing rent, it was a voluntary choice. And my roommate had lots more job opportunities than where we grew up and now he's doing really well, and I'm grateful Seattle offered that to him. Kinda off topic though?
oblio 4y ago
> He worked for AWS and he lived with roommates. Welcome to the Seattle utopia ladies and gentlemen. Maybe he was saving a ton of money?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

chmod600 4y ago

"That Amazon doesn't trust its managers to make these decisions" Leaving it up to managers is wrong. The employment agreement is with Amazon, and they need to make sure that material parts of it are administered fairly. Not that there's no room for subdivisions or whatever to make some policy here, but Amazon really does need to weigh in on the topic.

photon12 4y ago
"Wrong" seems overly absolute, as evidenced by my experience. This is going to impact retention in mission critical, "keep the lights on and keep regulators from levying big fines" adjacent departments. I don't see how holding people accountable to outcomes implies the need for a strict policy.

dnissley 4y ago

> We worked with IT to get a videoconference setup going where we could all hang out on Chime together for hours and hours through the workday Something like this might actually make remote work bearable to me, but the feeling I get is that this is not what most remote workers want. Am I wrong?

clnq 4y ago
I've seen this work very well in one company and fail several times in another. For many people, being reachable and interruptible constantly is the worst part of office work. So they don't want to replicate it digitally. Others appreciate the constant communication.
photon12 4y ago
It was optional, you could keep your camera off or not join ever if you wanted. When I was remote, I usually didn't join and just kept in touch on Chime text rooms unless my tasks that day needed a higher level of coordination.

brucethemoose2 4y ago

> Amazon doesn't trust its managers I don't think its (primarily) about manager trust: - Companies don't want the financial hit of large HQs staying empty because of some specific arbitrary regulations/requirements. - Going by CEOs' statements and seemingly coordinated actions, there is cultural stigma against remote work, implying that its unproductive, lazy, or whatever, hence these blanket policies read more like political statements than measured, data driven responses.

lennixm 4y ago
> Companies don't want the financial hit of large HQs staying empty because of some specific arbitrary regulations/requirements. This argument needs to stop. The financial hit of paying for office properties is orders of magnitude higher than any sort of lease break fee or regulation penalty. If these huge tech companies could safe money by getting rid of their office locations in favor of remote work they would do it in a heartbeat. Forcing people to come back to the office due to some sunk-cost-fallacy for paying for office space makes zero sense. > Going by CEOs' statements and seemingly coordinated actions, there is cultural stigma against remote work, implying that its unproductive, lazy, or whatever, hence these blanket policies read more like political statements than measured, data driven responses. The CEO of Amazon doesn't make a decision of this magnitude based on a whim. They'll have mountains of productivity data on remote work by now and it even says so in the post.
- brucethemoose2 4y ago
  Its not just that its a sunk cost, they need some headquarters, and selling the old one and downsizing is a massive endeavor.
- Mikushi 4y ago
  > The CEO of Amazon doesn't make a decision of this magnitude based on a whim. They'll have mountains of productivity data on remote work by now and it even says so in the post. If it says so it must be true. There's no data in that post, just platitudes management like to use about collaboration and creativity that is absolute BS. Shame I left the company I was at during the pandemic because I could dig the data but there was a very clear 20% sustained benefit in terms of productivity when WFH: faster to close tickets, bigger releases, less bugs. Did culture suffer? Yes. Did it matter, no, because culture is some vague notion only HR and senior management cares about, or at least pretends to. They still mandated RTO in the end, which cost them half of their more senior engineers, positions they still have not managed to fill, what a surprise when you want to force people through unproductive hoops. I now work in a remote first company and in 16 years of career it's the most productive team I've been part of, shit gets done at all levels more so than in any other company I've been part of.