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> They clearly don't do this though. Forgive me for perhaps being blind, but I fail to see it with the same clarity as you do. Typically, what stops companies

> They clearly don't do this though. Forgive me for perhaps being blind, but I fail to see it with the same clarity as you do. Typically, what stops companies from ruthlessly exploiting workers, selling products that damage society, polluting the environment, et cetera and so forth is only government regulation, not the goddwill of executives and chairmen.

toss1 4y ago
>>what stops companies from ruthlessly exploiting workers, selling products that damage society, polluting the environment, et cetera ...? When the companies engage in the ordinary big-business practice of regulatory capture, absolutely nothing. It is just treated as a game to be hacked. And hack it, they do. Because according to your standards, companies don't need to treat everyone fairly (as a good citizen), but the govt must treat them fairly. That's how earlier this week we saw headlines that Tesla employees in Buffalo NY were organizing a union drive. Then the very next day, we see headlines that Tesla has fired 10 workers, the ones organizing it. It is illegal as hell, but they did it anyway. Why? Because Tesla knows that it'll take years for all the hearings to work their way through the courts, and the result will be a fine, which they can appeal, and delay further. Meanwhile, they figure the end cost will be less than having to deal with giving workers a fair deal. So, despite all the "excess govt regulation", the workers get exploited and screwed. It is also how Norfolk rail donated to both Trump and the Ohio gov and had regulations eased, e.g., requiring fewer workers on trains and not needing to update their technology with "extra" brakes. And now we have an environmental disaster as a result. And those costs will be 'socialized' to the taxpayers and victims in the town, while the company keeps most of it's profits (it will not pay even a small fraction of the costs and it will be years from now). So yeah, the govt structurally CAN NOT be as nimble as the companies, so the companies exploit that weakness. Great for them. Sucks for society. I'm not saying they're all bad or evil, but this over-simplistic "shareholder value only" concept /structure is not good for a sustainable society or even for sustainable corporations.
- astrange 4y ago
  > Because Tesla knows that it'll take years for all the hearings to work their way through the courts, and the result will be a fine, which they can appeal, and delay further. I do not believe this is how NLRB enforcement works. Though if the US had sectoral bargaining like other countries it just wouldn't be an issue in the first place.
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    It's exactly how NLRB enforcement works. Company retalliation is immediate; the consequences tend to be small and long to arrive. The company gets years worth of intimidation out of the action, followed by a slap on the wrist much later.
- alright_scowl 4y ago
  You described quite well how companies, in their pursuit of profits at all costs, corrupt the systems that should rein them in so that they can freely exploit workers and externalize negativity. The answer for that is more regulation, stronger and more independent institutions that can rein those companies in. Not wishing thay companies magically become nicer.
  - ElevenLathe 4y ago
    Yeah I mean I guess we can set up an iron-fisted Dept. of Transportation and staff it to do battle with the railroads, shippers, airlines, trucking companies, etc., or the DoT could just own and operate these things directly. Even the most pro-capital ideologue has to admit there doesn't seem to be much point in Norfolk Southern owning and operating the tracks through East Palestine, since there is no competition except via other, inherently pricier, forms of transport (highway or maybe lake freighter). Yes, competition can lower costs, and therefore you may want to provision some goods via regulated markets, but it doesn't make sense for everything. Why not do like we do on highways, with public tracks but private rolling stock? We can require inspections before they switch out of their private yards onto the peoples' tracks and make sure their chemical deathtrains have reasonably working brakes, etc. This isn't radical thinking -- it's literally how it already works for trucks and highways.

toss1 4y ago

>>what stops companies from ruthlessly exploiting workers, selling products that damage society, polluting the environment, et cetera ...? When the companies engage in the ordinary big-business practice of regulatory capture, absolutely nothing. It is just treated as a game to be hacked. And hack it, they do. Because according to your standards, companies don't need to treat everyone fairly (as a good citizen), but the govt must treat them fairly. That's how earlier this week we saw headlines that Tesla employees in Buffalo NY were organizing a union drive. Then the very next day, we see headlines that Tesla has fired 10 workers, the ones organizing it. It is illegal as hell, but they did it anyway. Why? Because Tesla knows that it'll take years for all the hearings to work their way through the courts, and the result will be a fine, which they can appeal, and delay further. Meanwhile, they figure the end cost will be less than having to deal with giving workers a fair deal. So, despite all the "excess govt regulation", the workers get exploited and screwed. It is also how Norfolk rail donated to both Trump and the Ohio gov and had regulations eased, e.g., requiring fewer workers on trains and not needing to update their technology with "extra" brakes. And now we have an environmental disaster as a result. And those costs will be 'socialized' to the taxpayers and victims in the town, while the company keeps most of it's profits (it will not pay even a small fraction of the costs and it will be years from now). So yeah, the govt structurally CAN NOT be as nimble as the companies, so the companies exploit that weakness. Great for them. Sucks for society. I'm not saying they're all bad or evil, but this over-simplistic "shareholder value only" concept /structure is not good for a sustainable society or even for sustainable corporations.

astrange 4y ago
> Because Tesla knows that it'll take years for all the hearings to work their way through the courts, and the result will be a fine, which they can appeal, and delay further. I do not believe this is how NLRB enforcement works. Though if the US had sectoral bargaining like other countries it just wouldn't be an issue in the first place.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  It's exactly how NLRB enforcement works. Company retalliation is immediate; the consequences tend to be small and long to arrive. The company gets years worth of intimidation out of the action, followed by a slap on the wrist much later.
alright_scowl 4y ago
You described quite well how companies, in their pursuit of profits at all costs, corrupt the systems that should rein them in so that they can freely exploit workers and externalize negativity. The answer for that is more regulation, stronger and more independent institutions that can rein those companies in. Not wishing thay companies magically become nicer.
- ElevenLathe 4y ago
  Yeah I mean I guess we can set up an iron-fisted Dept. of Transportation and staff it to do battle with the railroads, shippers, airlines, trucking companies, etc., or the DoT could just own and operate these things directly. Even the most pro-capital ideologue has to admit there doesn't seem to be much point in Norfolk Southern owning and operating the tracks through East Palestine, since there is no competition except via other, inherently pricier, forms of transport (highway or maybe lake freighter). Yes, competition can lower costs, and therefore you may want to provision some goods via regulated markets, but it doesn't make sense for everything. Why not do like we do on highways, with public tracks but private rolling stock? We can require inspections before they switch out of their private yards onto the peoples' tracks and make sure their chemical deathtrains have reasonably working brakes, etc. This isn't radical thinking -- it's literally how it already works for trucks and highways.