6 ms·

Tile adds undetectable anti-theft mode with $1M fine if used for stalking

35 points by clairity 4y ago

MagicMoonlight 4y ago
Apple needs this. Airtags could eliminate theft if they were undetectable. Put them in a car for £20 and even if they park it underground it doesn’t matter… their own iphone will betray them.
steponlego 4y ago
Oh this is good. Next up? Microsoft fining you a million dollars if you type up your illegal plans for world domination in Word.
galleywest200 4y ago
> AirTag competitor Tile today announced a new Anti-Theft Mode for Tile tracking devices, which is designed to make Tile accessories undetectable by the anti-stalking Scan and Secure feature. You too can use our product for stalking for the low, low price of $1,000,000?
- BizarroLand 4y ago
  If the punishment for a crime is money, the rich can commit those crimes at leisure.
sandworm101 4y ago
>> Tile says that any individual convicted of using Tile devices to illegally track another individual without their consent will be fined $1 million, wording that is in the Tile terms of service. Lol. Which lawyer came up with that one? You simply are not allowed to implement punishment fines in contracts. They should have instead couched this in indemnity language, a statement that the user shall reimburse Tile for legal expensive should a stalked person rightly sue them. Of course by the time someone is actually convicted of stalking they aren't likely to have a spare 1mil lying around. That's why criminal defense attorneys demand money up front. Nothing will ever come of this scare tactic.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  Yeah, I'm not a lawyer and even I knew you can't do that shit. Not straight-up punitive fines like that. You don't even need to have any familiarity with contract law to figure this out—those provisions would be everywhere if they had any chance in hell of holding up. They're not, so, they must not hold up. QED.
  - lifeformed 4y ago
    What's the difference between a punitive fine and something like a late fee?
    - lozenge 4y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquidated_damages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquidated_damages "Under the common law, liquidated damages may not be set so high that they are penalty clauses rather than fair compensation... Generally, at common law, a liquidated damages clause will not be enforced if its purpose is to punish the party in breach rather than to compensate the injured party" If Tile provides information to the police to help catch a stalker, they can't claim their reputational damage is $1m. Actually, even their statements in this thread show that it's intended as a punishment.
    - sandworm101 4y ago
      A fee is (somehow) linked to costs suffered because of the breech. If you return a rental car late then you have to pay for the extra time, along with any other incidental expenses suffered. A "late fee" might cover the costs associated with them providing a different car to customers who had booked your car. Or, if they had no other cars, whatever they had to do to satisfy those other customers. You are allowed to identify so-called liquidated damages in a contract. You aren't allowed to create a lottery whereby you can demand millions from customers who make small mistakes.
      - yamtaddle 4y ago
        Double-especially true in TOS that aren't even properly negotiated. There's a bit more leeway if it's, say, two businesses hammering out a real contract, a true meeting of the minds, but, in a display of uncharacteristic sanity on the part of the US legal system, these kinds of boilerplate take-it-or-leave-it "contracts" usually aren't allowed to get as out-there as the real thing can (though even in those cases, something like this would be pretty damn iffy)
rektide 4y ago
It notable also requires an ID and some kind of live person verification. I have a hard time imagining these threats really working to stop abuse. But recipeocally, the product as it stands today is a bit of a beacon for theft, is a signal that there are valuables around. This is definitely a product trying to negotiate a difficult moral edge. (Oh while also getting absurdly deep personal data)
- CharlesW 4y ago
  More detail from the announcement¹: "To activate Anti-Theft Mode, users must submit and apply for an advanced ID verification process that includes a biometric scan to accurately detect fake IDs. Once ID verification is complete, the user will be registered with Tile, and Anti-Theft Mode will be activated across all of the user's Tile Bluetooth trackers. Syncing a government-issued ID with a Tile user's account is a proactive measure to deter the feature from being used for nefarious purposes, such as stalking. Anonymity is directly linked with abusive behavior both in person and online4, so Tile is eliminating anonymity and bringing in the latest ID verification technology to its Anti-Theft Mode offering." ¹https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/tile-takes-aim-at-bluetooth-tracker-industrys-theft-and-stalking-measures-with-launch-of-anti-theft-mode-301748350.html https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/tile-takes-aim-at-b...
jtsiskin 4y ago
If they’re just making things up, why not make it a $1 billion fine? That would be 1000x more deterrent! Gun manufacturers should start adding this to their TOS. $1M fine if used to illegally commit murder.
- shitlord 4y ago
  This reminds me of the time Limewire was sued, and the recording industry claimed damages of up to $75 trillion from copyright infringement. Now that's a deterrent!
- NoZebra120vClip 4y ago
  Because Tile wants to be clear that Dr. Evil is running the show. https://youtu.be/EJR1H5tf5wE https://youtu.be/EJR1H5tf5wE
bitmover 4y ago
Doesn’t really help the person who was murdered after being stalked, but congrats to Tile on the new revenue stream I guess...
nimih 4y ago
I hadn’t realized the only reason stalking is an issue is because there’s no negative consequences for doing it. Glad someone finally solved that problem.
- LorenPechtel 4y ago
  I don't think they have *solved* it. Rather, this strikes me more as making them less attractive for nefarious use than other options.
  - therealcamino 4y ago
    Clearly AirTags will still be the choice for stalking Android users -- better coverage, they won't get notifications anyway, and no pesky fines!
causi 4y ago
Speaking as someone who owns several Tiles, I don't understand Tile. Airtags are an order of magnitude more useful and only slightly more expensive. The manufacturing cost for a Tile can't be more than a couple of bucks. Not only are they trying to charge almost as much as an Airtag, they charge you a monthly fee if you want to get alerted when you lose connection with your Tile. If Tiles were ten bucks a piece I'd have them all over the place. Is this company suicidal?
- fragmede 4y ago
  Economy of scale. What they are, is tiny next to Apple, and they don't get the same efficiencies from mass manufacturing as Apple, with their practically infinitly deep pockets, is able to buy.
  - causi 4y ago
    They had an eight year head start on building bluetooth trackers over Apple.
    - therealcamino 4y ago
      If I understand correctly, I think the key problem for Tile is that Apple can use the billions of Apple devices out there as a network to locate AirTags. Tile only has available to it those devices that have the Tile app installed. We had a Tile years ago in my mom's purse to help her find it, so since it wasn't with me personally I'd get notifications when it was located somewhere that wasn't her home. It seemed like there wasn't great coverage.
- savanaly 4y ago
  Does airtag have a button on it like tile does that can be configured to send a find my iPhone Bluetooth signal? I have a friend who has a tile so I know it can do this but I couldn’t find that listed as a feature of airtags.
  - causi 4y ago
kraussvonespy 4y ago
Isn't "undetectable" an overstatement? If you were a sophisticated attacker, you'd be able to detect RF coming from the Tiles every so often, right? Or do they only respond to the right signals from a signed-in device? In addition, doesn't the anti-theft feature make it impossible to find the item if you aren't close with the proper Tile app signed into one login? The power of AirTags is that any IOS device can wander past, see the device, then send that info to the owner without the wanderer even knowing about the transaction. Tile was pretty restricted before as there are many, many times fewer Tile app users compared to AirTags. Now with this feature, instead of all Tile users being able to gather info, if the Tile isn't within a few feet of the one signed-in device, it's not going to find the Tile and the stolen item. Seems like a thin layer of marketing slathered onto a product that isn't really competing anymore.
- crhulls 4y ago
  Tile/Life360 CEO here. Yes, undetectable is an overstatement in a context like this. Clearly they are detectable, but a regular small time thief is not going to know how to do this. Even using a bluetooth sniffer is complicated for a layman (you'll probably find a huge number of bluetooth devices hanging around you). We can do things like rotate MACs to make it harder and that might be coming next. The main point is adding increasing levels of difficulty and friction
xnx 4y ago
This headline indicates we are participants to their marketing stunt.
crhulls 4y ago
Hi All, I'm the CEO of Life360, Tile's parent company. I wrote a very long post that goes into way more detail about what we are doing. Here it is for reference. https://medium.com/@chrishulls/tile-is-taking-a-different-approach-to-the-bluetooth-industrys-theft-and-stalking-problems-bd92d3ae4f3c https://medium.com/@chrishulls/tile-is-taking-a-different-ap... I'm also happy to answer any questions.
- lozenge 4y ago
  "Make stalking a first-time felony offense; as of now, this is not the norm in most states. Bonus points if this can be done at the federal level." "consent to Tile’s ability to work with law enforcement — even without a subpoena — if a Tile device is suspected of having been used in a crime" Why are you advocating overpolicing and warrantless surveillance when we already know the police, prosecutors and courts are institutionally racist?
  - crhulls 4y ago
    I think that is your judgement re overpolicing and I don't agree. We will only work with law enforcement without a subpoena a) if people opt into the feature - they can continue to use it with the feature off if they so choose and b) only in instances of stalking where your device has been found on someone. We are trying to thread a needle.

35 points by clairity 4y ago

Apple needs this. Airtags could eliminate theft if they were undetectable. Put them in a car for £20 and even if they park it underground it doesn’t matter… their own iphone will betray them.

steponlego 4y ago

Oh this is good. Next up? Microsoft fining you a million dollars if you type up your illegal plans for world domination in Word.

galleywest200 4y ago

> AirTag competitor Tile today announced a new Anti-Theft Mode for Tile tracking devices, which is designed to make Tile accessories undetectable by the anti-stalking Scan and Secure feature. You too can use our product for stalking for the low, low price of $1,000,000?

BizarroLand 4y ago
If the punishment for a crime is money, the rich can commit those crimes at leisure.

sandworm101 4y ago

>> Tile says that any individual convicted of using Tile devices to illegally track another individual without their consent will be fined $1 million, wording that is in the Tile terms of service. Lol. Which lawyer came up with that one? You simply are not allowed to implement punishment fines in contracts. They should have instead couched this in indemnity language, a statement that the user shall reimburse Tile for legal expensive should a stalked person rightly sue them. Of course by the time someone is actually convicted of stalking they aren't likely to have a spare 1mil lying around. That's why criminal defense attorneys demand money up front. Nothing will ever come of this scare tactic.

yamtaddle 4y ago
Yeah, I'm not a lawyer and even I knew you can't do that shit. Not straight-up punitive fines like that. You don't even need to have any familiarity with contract law to figure this out—those provisions would be everywhere if they had any chance in hell of holding up. They're not, so, they must not hold up. QED.
- lifeformed 4y ago
  What's the difference between a punitive fine and something like a late fee?
  - lozenge 4y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquidated_damages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquidated_damages "Under the common law, liquidated damages may not be set so high that they are penalty clauses rather than fair compensation... Generally, at common law, a liquidated damages clause will not be enforced if its purpose is to punish the party in breach rather than to compensate the injured party" If Tile provides information to the police to help catch a stalker, they can't claim their reputational damage is $1m. Actually, even their statements in this thread show that it's intended as a punishment.
  - sandworm101 4y ago
    A fee is (somehow) linked to costs suffered because of the breech. If you return a rental car late then you have to pay for the extra time, along with any other incidental expenses suffered. A "late fee" might cover the costs associated with them providing a different car to customers who had booked your car. Or, if they had no other cars, whatever they had to do to satisfy those other customers. You are allowed to identify so-called liquidated damages in a contract. You aren't allowed to create a lottery whereby you can demand millions from customers who make small mistakes.
    - yamtaddle 4y ago
      Double-especially true in TOS that aren't even properly negotiated. There's a bit more leeway if it's, say, two businesses hammering out a real contract, a true meeting of the minds, but, in a display of uncharacteristic sanity on the part of the US legal system, these kinds of boilerplate take-it-or-leave-it "contracts" usually aren't allowed to get as out-there as the real thing can (though even in those cases, something like this would be pretty damn iffy)

rektide 4y ago

It notable also requires an ID and some kind of live person verification. I have a hard time imagining these threats really working to stop abuse. But recipeocally, the product as it stands today is a bit of a beacon for theft, is a signal that there are valuables around. This is definitely a product trying to negotiate a difficult moral edge. (Oh while also getting absurdly deep personal data)

CharlesW 4y ago
More detail from the announcement¹: "To activate Anti-Theft Mode, users must submit and apply for an advanced ID verification process that includes a biometric scan to accurately detect fake IDs. Once ID verification is complete, the user will be registered with Tile, and Anti-Theft Mode will be activated across all of the user's Tile Bluetooth trackers. Syncing a government-issued ID with a Tile user's account is a proactive measure to deter the feature from being used for nefarious purposes, such as stalking. Anonymity is directly linked with abusive behavior both in person and online4, so Tile is eliminating anonymity and bringing in the latest ID verification technology to its Anti-Theft Mode offering." ¹https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/tile-takes-aim-at-bluetooth-tracker-industrys-theft-and-stalking-measures-with-launch-of-anti-theft-mode-301748350.html https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/tile-takes-aim-at-b...

jtsiskin 4y ago

If they’re just making things up, why not make it a $1 billion fine? That would be 1000x more deterrent! Gun manufacturers should start adding this to their TOS. $1M fine if used to illegally commit murder.

shitlord 4y ago
This reminds me of the time Limewire was sued, and the recording industry claimed damages of up to $75 trillion from copyright infringement. Now that's a deterrent!
NoZebra120vClip 4y ago
Because Tile wants to be clear that Dr. Evil is running the show. https://youtu.be/EJR1H5tf5wE https://youtu.be/EJR1H5tf5wE

bitmover 4y ago

Doesn’t really help the person who was murdered after being stalked, but congrats to Tile on the new revenue stream I guess...

nimih 4y ago

I hadn’t realized the only reason stalking is an issue is because there’s no negative consequences for doing it. Glad someone finally solved that problem.

LorenPechtel 4y ago
I don't think they have *solved* it. Rather, this strikes me more as making them less attractive for nefarious use than other options.
- therealcamino 4y ago
  Clearly AirTags will still be the choice for stalking Android users -- better coverage, they won't get notifications anyway, and no pesky fines!

causi 4y ago

Speaking as someone who owns several Tiles, I don't understand Tile. Airtags are an order of magnitude more useful and only slightly more expensive. The manufacturing cost for a Tile can't be more than a couple of bucks. Not only are they trying to charge almost as much as an Airtag, they charge you a monthly fee if you want to get alerted when you lose connection with your Tile. If Tiles were ten bucks a piece I'd have them all over the place. Is this company suicidal?

fragmede 4y ago
Economy of scale. What they are, is tiny next to Apple, and they don't get the same efficiencies from mass manufacturing as Apple, with their practically infinitly deep pockets, is able to buy.
- causi 4y ago
  They had an eight year head start on building bluetooth trackers over Apple.
  - therealcamino 4y ago
    If I understand correctly, I think the key problem for Tile is that Apple can use the billions of Apple devices out there as a network to locate AirTags. Tile only has available to it those devices that have the Tile app installed. We had a Tile years ago in my mom's purse to help her find it, so since it wasn't with me personally I'd get notifications when it was located somewhere that wasn't her home. It seemed like there wasn't great coverage.
savanaly 4y ago
Does airtag have a button on it like tile does that can be configured to send a find my iPhone Bluetooth signal? I have a friend who has a tile so I know it can do this but I couldn’t find that listed as a feature of airtags.
- causi 4y ago

kraussvonespy 4y ago

Isn't "undetectable" an overstatement? If you were a sophisticated attacker, you'd be able to detect RF coming from the Tiles every so often, right? Or do they only respond to the right signals from a signed-in device? In addition, doesn't the anti-theft feature make it impossible to find the item if you aren't close with the proper Tile app signed into one login? The power of AirTags is that any IOS device can wander past, see the device, then send that info to the owner without the wanderer even knowing about the transaction. Tile was pretty restricted before as there are many, many times fewer Tile app users compared to AirTags. Now with this feature, instead of all Tile users being able to gather info, if the Tile isn't within a few feet of the one signed-in device, it's not going to find the Tile and the stolen item. Seems like a thin layer of marketing slathered onto a product that isn't really competing anymore.

crhulls 4y ago
Tile/Life360 CEO here. Yes, undetectable is an overstatement in a context like this. Clearly they are detectable, but a regular small time thief is not going to know how to do this. Even using a bluetooth sniffer is complicated for a layman (you'll probably find a huge number of bluetooth devices hanging around you). We can do things like rotate MACs to make it harder and that might be coming next. The main point is adding increasing levels of difficulty and friction

xnx 4y ago

This headline indicates we are participants to their marketing stunt.

crhulls 4y ago

Hi All, I'm the CEO of Life360, Tile's parent company. I wrote a very long post that goes into way more detail about what we are doing. Here it is for reference. https://medium.com/@chrishulls/tile-is-taking-a-different-approach-to-the-bluetooth-industrys-theft-and-stalking-problems-bd92d3ae4f3c https://medium.com/@chrishulls/tile-is-taking-a-different-ap... I'm also happy to answer any questions.

lozenge 4y ago
"Make stalking a first-time felony offense; as of now, this is not the norm in most states. Bonus points if this can be done at the federal level." "consent to Tile’s ability to work with law enforcement — even without a subpoena — if a Tile device is suspected of having been used in a crime" Why are you advocating overpolicing and warrantless surveillance when we already know the police, prosecutors and courts are institutionally racist?
- crhulls 4y ago
  I think that is your judgement re overpolicing and I don't agree. We will only work with law enforcement without a subpoena a) if people opt into the feature - they can continue to use it with the feature off if they so choose and b) only in instances of stalking where your device has been found on someone. We are trying to thread a needle.