4 ms·

I envision a future where people who care about their children's education flock to states that are "anti-woke". Students there will still have access to honors

I envision a future where people who care about their children's education flock to states that are "anti-woke". Students there will still have access to honors classes, will read classics, etc. Anecdotally it's already started. I have some coworkers that are fleeing California for states like Florida, North Carolina, and Texas primarily for better school districts.

giraffe_lady 4y ago
When I went to school in one of those states it was pretty obvious that the honors classes were not more rigorous, but just a way to effectively continue segregation long after it had been made illegal. There was a slight complicating factor of class but even still it was very clear what was happening. The white children of farmers (who in rural areas are the upper class) were in the honors classes, the black and hispanic kids, along with most of the children of farm laborers were in the non-honors classes. Having grown up in an environment like this I'm not so foolish as to take the leaders of those states or the general culture war right at face value. They want segregation again and this is the closest they can get. You don't have to buy into it either.
- throwawayacc5 4y ago
  >When I went to school in one of those states it was pretty obvious that the honors classes were not more rigorous When I went to school in one of those states, and taught in one of those states, it was pretty obvious that the honors/AP classes most definitely were more rigorous, and that is supported by the evidence of performance of these students in tests and college success. >but just a way to effectively continue segregation long after it had been made illegal. Ah yes, the classrooms with an overrepresention of Jews and Asians is a White supremacist ploy. >There was a slight complicating factor of class but even still it was very clear what was happening. The white children of farmers (who in rural areas are the upper class) The vast, vast majority of of White farmers in these states are at or below the poverty line. They are by no means "upper class". >the black and hispanic kids, along with most of the children of farm laborers were in the non-honors classes. This holds true anywhere in the US, even in the darkest blue areas of NYC and SF. >Having grown up in an environment like this I'm not so foolish as to take the leaders of those states or the general culture war right at face value. Definitely agree here about those in the "woke" areas. >They want segregation again and this is the closest they can get. This is what wokeism is calling for, safe spaces and segregation for BIPOCs. >You don't have to buy into it either. The redder states definitely are not.
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    hey qq which side is actively stripping books from school libraries? how many times in the last two years has a "woke" activist done a mass shooting targeting a specific group? Like there is simply no excuse for what you are endorsing here. You can blame le wokisme all you want but people are literally being killed over this culture war bullshit you're pushing and you know that by now.
    - throwawayf37jg 4y ago
      mathboi fly, back on the scene Admittedly he used an SUV and not a gun. Culture war is being pushed by "le wokismo" as well
    - throwawayacc5 4y ago
      hey qq which side is actively pushing propaganda and porn books into school libraries and removing/censoring classics? hey qq which side is actively sexually grooming children? how many times in the last two years has an "anti-woke" activist done a mass car killing targeting a specific group, and rioted in cities causing billions in damage? Like there is simply no excuse for what you are endorsing here. You can blame le nazism all you want but people are literally being killed over this culture war bullshit you're pushing and you know that by now.
karlshea 4y ago
Except now Florida is fighting with the College Board over the contents of some AP classes they’re offering. “Woke” and “Anti-Woke” are two sides of the same idiotic coin—you won’t be reading classics in either place. Neither side wants you to actually learn how to think for yourself, they both just want adherence to their ideology.
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  Seeing as the "Woke" side explicitly wants people to learn about american history, while the "anti-woke" crowd is banning books from classrooms, this "both sides same" narrative is garbage.
  - karlshea 4y ago
    I totally agree that the "anti-woke" side is firmly way off to the extreme on this—but there's more banning viewpoints and pushing some out-there ideology on the woke side than everyone seems comfortable talking about. I'm not trying to both-sides this at all, I'd just caution the woke side to keep in mind that it's easy to veer off in a crazy direction if it keeps on going, and this is coming from a strong leftist First Amendment point of view.
    - dmix 4y ago
      > it's easy to veer off in a crazy direction if it keeps on going You seem to have a higher tolerance than most who care to pay attention. There's plenty of evidence crazy is mainstreaming in legacy school boards and among influential university professors. At least for those who appreciate talent and measurable outcomes, not naive and idealistic "let's make everyone equally mediocre" approach. IMO, as a Canadian, the fact a single US state (Florida) is engaging in the inversely crazy radical-right response in education - similarly using banning and ideology to silence dissent and push their own weird versions - doesn't really do much to counter the mountain pushing back against meritocracy and talent in the last decade. The trend in the rest of the western world is very apparent once you view US national-level politics in a realistic real-world context. You could justifiably argue there's plenty of dominant rhetoric in national US politics/media (and related global media which feeds off the US) to balance the narratives, maybe even argue it's more fundamentally centrist than either/or. But in the real practical world of education (and HR/private employment, journalism, health care, movies/TV, etc) there really is no comparison of ideological cultural impact and high-risk experimental adjustment going on.
lxm 4y ago
Also anecdotally, but out of friends that moved (to FL and SC) none are impressed with the local school districts. Seems like it's either homeschooling or private school route for them. To be fair, tuition at private schools is way more affordable compared to CA.
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  Meanwhile my family, including an actual teacher, that moved to florida has found their schooling to be abysmal, with the occasional private school that matches more boring states' public schools. My state has very good education outcomes, despite being pretty damn poor, despite a population older than florida, and despite a shitload of blue collar families with very traditional opinions. It's very simple why: We require teachers to have a master's degree in teaching plus their subject, along with ~25 training days a year, strict expectations on experience and a requirement to take 15 credits worth of additional college classes on a regular basis. The outcome, despite individual teachers making garbage money, and making even our dumbest students take the SAT, is that 9/10 of our students get a highschool diploma, and our full state's standardized test scores are higher than lots of states where things like the SAT are opt-in, meaning only college hopeful students take it. We also have very educated, intelligent, and talented teachers. My mother was a middle school french teacher, but the same qualifications that got her that job also allow her to be a french professor in pretty much any college. My chemistry teacher was a former nuclear physicist for the navy. My english teacher was recognized as on of the best in the state, despite living in a town of 9k people. Fully half of my high school class (100 kids, varying from farm kids to rich yuppie kids) were in "advanced" or honors or AP classes, including kids you would traditionally consider "class clowns" or otherwise uninterested in education. If you were not interested in college, my high school had an entire vocational wing, where before you graduated you could get your CDL, your heavy equipment operators certification, you could learn to cook, you could learn to knit, you could become a licensed mechanic, you could learn how to manage a greenhouse or manage an entire farm, take prep classes for business school and go to national conventions, learn how to be an IT professional from never having used a computer in your life, or literally tens of other directions to become a trained professional.

giraffe_lady 4y ago

When I went to school in one of those states it was pretty obvious that the honors classes were not more rigorous, but just a way to effectively continue segregation long after it had been made illegal. There was a slight complicating factor of class but even still it was very clear what was happening. The white children of farmers (who in rural areas are the upper class) were in the honors classes, the black and hispanic kids, along with most of the children of farm laborers were in the non-honors classes. Having grown up in an environment like this I'm not so foolish as to take the leaders of those states or the general culture war right at face value. They want segregation again and this is the closest they can get. You don't have to buy into it either.

throwawayacc5 4y ago
>When I went to school in one of those states it was pretty obvious that the honors classes were not more rigorous When I went to school in one of those states, and taught in one of those states, it was pretty obvious that the honors/AP classes most definitely were more rigorous, and that is supported by the evidence of performance of these students in tests and college success. >but just a way to effectively continue segregation long after it had been made illegal. Ah yes, the classrooms with an overrepresention of Jews and Asians is a White supremacist ploy. >There was a slight complicating factor of class but even still it was very clear what was happening. The white children of farmers (who in rural areas are the upper class) The vast, vast majority of of White farmers in these states are at or below the poverty line. They are by no means "upper class". >the black and hispanic kids, along with most of the children of farm laborers were in the non-honors classes. This holds true anywhere in the US, even in the darkest blue areas of NYC and SF. >Having grown up in an environment like this I'm not so foolish as to take the leaders of those states or the general culture war right at face value. Definitely agree here about those in the "woke" areas. >They want segregation again and this is the closest they can get. This is what wokeism is calling for, safe spaces and segregation for BIPOCs. >You don't have to buy into it either. The redder states definitely are not.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  hey qq which side is actively stripping books from school libraries? how many times in the last two years has a "woke" activist done a mass shooting targeting a specific group? Like there is simply no excuse for what you are endorsing here. You can blame le wokisme all you want but people are literally being killed over this culture war bullshit you're pushing and you know that by now.
  - throwawayf37jg 4y ago
    mathboi fly, back on the scene Admittedly he used an SUV and not a gun. Culture war is being pushed by "le wokismo" as well
  - throwawayacc5 4y ago
    hey qq which side is actively pushing propaganda and porn books into school libraries and removing/censoring classics? hey qq which side is actively sexually grooming children? how many times in the last two years has an "anti-woke" activist done a mass car killing targeting a specific group, and rioted in cities causing billions in damage? Like there is simply no excuse for what you are endorsing here. You can blame le nazism all you want but people are literally being killed over this culture war bullshit you're pushing and you know that by now.

karlshea 4y ago

Except now Florida is fighting with the College Board over the contents of some AP classes they’re offering. “Woke” and “Anti-Woke” are two sides of the same idiotic coin—you won’t be reading classics in either place. Neither side wants you to actually learn how to think for yourself, they both just want adherence to their ideology.

mrguyorama 4y ago
Seeing as the "Woke" side explicitly wants people to learn about american history, while the "anti-woke" crowd is banning books from classrooms, this "both sides same" narrative is garbage.
- karlshea 4y ago
  I totally agree that the "anti-woke" side is firmly way off to the extreme on this—but there's more banning viewpoints and pushing some out-there ideology on the woke side than everyone seems comfortable talking about. I'm not trying to both-sides this at all, I'd just caution the woke side to keep in mind that it's easy to veer off in a crazy direction if it keeps on going, and this is coming from a strong leftist First Amendment point of view.
  - dmix 4y ago
    > it's easy to veer off in a crazy direction if it keeps on going You seem to have a higher tolerance than most who care to pay attention. There's plenty of evidence crazy is mainstreaming in legacy school boards and among influential university professors. At least for those who appreciate talent and measurable outcomes, not naive and idealistic "let's make everyone equally mediocre" approach. IMO, as a Canadian, the fact a single US state (Florida) is engaging in the inversely crazy radical-right response in education - similarly using banning and ideology to silence dissent and push their own weird versions - doesn't really do much to counter the mountain pushing back against meritocracy and talent in the last decade. The trend in the rest of the western world is very apparent once you view US national-level politics in a realistic real-world context. You could justifiably argue there's plenty of dominant rhetoric in national US politics/media (and related global media which feeds off the US) to balance the narratives, maybe even argue it's more fundamentally centrist than either/or. But in the real practical world of education (and HR/private employment, journalism, health care, movies/TV, etc) there really is no comparison of ideological cultural impact and high-risk experimental adjustment going on.

lxm 4y ago

Also anecdotally, but out of friends that moved (to FL and SC) none are impressed with the local school districts. Seems like it's either homeschooling or private school route for them. To be fair, tuition at private schools is way more affordable compared to CA.

mrguyorama 4y ago
Meanwhile my family, including an actual teacher, that moved to florida has found their schooling to be abysmal, with the occasional private school that matches more boring states' public schools. My state has very good education outcomes, despite being pretty damn poor, despite a population older than florida, and despite a shitload of blue collar families with very traditional opinions. It's very simple why: We require teachers to have a master's degree in teaching plus their subject, along with ~25 training days a year, strict expectations on experience and a requirement to take 15 credits worth of additional college classes on a regular basis. The outcome, despite individual teachers making garbage money, and making even our dumbest students take the SAT, is that 9/10 of our students get a highschool diploma, and our full state's standardized test scores are higher than lots of states where things like the SAT are opt-in, meaning only college hopeful students take it. We also have very educated, intelligent, and talented teachers. My mother was a middle school french teacher, but the same qualifications that got her that job also allow her to be a french professor in pretty much any college. My chemistry teacher was a former nuclear physicist for the navy. My english teacher was recognized as on of the best in the state, despite living in a town of 9k people. Fully half of my high school class (100 kids, varying from farm kids to rich yuppie kids) were in "advanced" or honors or AP classes, including kids you would traditionally consider "class clowns" or otherwise uninterested in education. If you were not interested in college, my high school had an entire vocational wing, where before you graduated you could get your CDL, your heavy equipment operators certification, you could learn to cook, you could learn to knit, you could become a licensed mechanic, you could learn how to manage a greenhouse or manage an entire farm, take prep classes for business school and go to national conventions, learn how to be an IT professional from never having used a computer in your life, or literally tens of other directions to become a trained professional.