6 ms·

The problem is that (in school and the workplace, at least) it's almost always the individual with autism that is told to conform to others and never the case t

The problem is that (in school and the workplace, at least) it's almost always the individual with autism that is told to conform to others and never the case that the others are taught how to work with the autistic (or other neurodivergent) person instead. It would be better if the education about how others worked was two-way and included teaching others about autism as well. And yes, some schools now do this, but he majority don't.

ImHereToVote 4y ago
I wish you specified that you mean high functioning autistic people.
- danShumway 4y ago
  Even with low-functioning autistic people where "they're just different" isn't a good or respectful descriptor of their experiences, sometimes society makes dealing with those problems much more difficult than necessary. Again, not saying that low-functioning autistic people don't have a problem that they wish would go away, but it's sort of like having wheelchair ramps. Most people who are in wheelchairs wish they weren't in wheelchairs, but they still like having ramps into and out of buildings. It's still problematic to go to those people and say, "okay I get that you're disabled, but you need to learn how to walk up the library stairs, it's not our job to have ramps everywhere." There are a lot of autistic people who don't think of themselves as neurodivergent, they think of themselves as disabled. It is still often harmful to those people to force them to (on top of their other struggles) also figure out how to constantly conduct themselves so they don't inconvenience anyone else. Being more accommodating can mean allowing them to stim (if the stimming isn't self-destructive), it can mean giving them access to tools that help with sensory issues (headphones, for example), it can mean recognizing if they're panicking and responding to the situation, rather than just ignoring it until they completely break down. Mostly, it means teaching people to understand that person better and to try and set up systems in such a way that the individual can have a better life, rather than forcing the individual to conform -- especially in the case of people on extreme ends of the spectrum who very clearly can't conform. There is an element of accommodation for people who label themselves as neurodivergent that does deal with acceptance and celebration, and that's valid for them to bring up. I really don't think that neurodivergence/disability needs to be a contest, and it's fine for them to talk about autism in terms of social prejudice. But outside of of the neurodivergent movement, overall accommodation doesn't really have anything to do with whether someone is high functioning or low functioning as much as it has to do with not making their life more difficult than it needs to be. Especially in the case of someone who is on the extreme ends of the spectrum and needs help to take care of themselves, it's extremely important for the people around them to make some effort to learn about what they're going through and to learn to work with them and to treat them like a human being. I think that's the case for any mental disability (again, whether or not someone describes their own experiences with autism as a disability or as a difference is irrelevant to what I'm talking about). But if you want an extreme example from the "disability" side of things, you can't go to someone with alzheimers and get mad at them for not remembering what they ate yesterday. If you want to interact positively with someone in that position, you have to work with them. You have to be able to understand what's happening. A lot of social institutions (especially schools) for a long time never put in that work for autistic kids. And a lot of care for autistic people (including people who are best described as disabled) is still focused on making that person more convenient for society, not on caring specifically for that individual. One piece of advice I give when talking about autism care is "find someone who cares more about the autistic kid than they care about the parents." And I think that holds true both for neurodivergent and differently-abled people and for nonverbal kids who are extremely disabled and will require help to function in society for their entire lives. It doesn't matter, caring for that person should still be primarily focused on caring for that person, not the people around them.
slibhb 4y ago
Isn't that inevitable given that the vast majority of people aren't autistic?
- infamouscow 4y ago
  So it's okay because the vast majority of people aren't affected? By that rationale, Black, Asian, and LGBT Americans should keep to themselves and stop fighting for rights or having a voice. In both cases we are talking about people with immutable traits or characteristics society as a whole isn't fond of. (If society was fond, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion, nor people fighting for equal treatment in society.) All of these people have been the victims of the genocidal lunatics in the 20th century. The only difference is society has not progressed to a point where it is socially acceptable to condemn people for hating the neurodivergent.
  - slibhb 4y ago
    No one is talking about rights. Autistic people have the same rights as gay people and black people. What we're talking about are norms. Norms tend to be based on the average person. If you aren't average, you're going to have to deal with that. I don't see any other solution.
    - infamouscow 4y ago
      If you had a time machine and went back to the 1950s, people would be making the same argument for why Black, Asian, and LGBT Americans are just going to have to deal with being minorities. edit: typo
      - slibhb 4y ago
        Blacks, Asians, Jews, Muslims, gays etc still have to "deal with being minorities". Again, you're conflating norms and rights.
        infamouscow 4y ago

ImHereToVote 4y ago

I wish you specified that you mean high functioning autistic people.

danShumway 4y ago
Even with low-functioning autistic people where "they're just different" isn't a good or respectful descriptor of their experiences, sometimes society makes dealing with those problems much more difficult than necessary. Again, not saying that low-functioning autistic people don't have a problem that they wish would go away, but it's sort of like having wheelchair ramps. Most people who are in wheelchairs wish they weren't in wheelchairs, but they still like having ramps into and out of buildings. It's still problematic to go to those people and say, "okay I get that you're disabled, but you need to learn how to walk up the library stairs, it's not our job to have ramps everywhere." There are a lot of autistic people who don't think of themselves as neurodivergent, they think of themselves as disabled. It is still often harmful to those people to force them to (on top of their other struggles) also figure out how to constantly conduct themselves so they don't inconvenience anyone else. Being more accommodating can mean allowing them to stim (if the stimming isn't self-destructive), it can mean giving them access to tools that help with sensory issues (headphones, for example), it can mean recognizing if they're panicking and responding to the situation, rather than just ignoring it until they completely break down. Mostly, it means teaching people to understand that person better and to try and set up systems in such a way that the individual can have a better life, rather than forcing the individual to conform -- especially in the case of people on extreme ends of the spectrum who very clearly can't conform. There is an element of accommodation for people who label themselves as neurodivergent that does deal with acceptance and celebration, and that's valid for them to bring up. I really don't think that neurodivergence/disability needs to be a contest, and it's fine for them to talk about autism in terms of social prejudice. But outside of of the neurodivergent movement, overall accommodation doesn't really have anything to do with whether someone is high functioning or low functioning as much as it has to do with not making their life more difficult than it needs to be. Especially in the case of someone who is on the extreme ends of the spectrum and needs help to take care of themselves, it's extremely important for the people around them to make some effort to learn about what they're going through and to learn to work with them and to treat them like a human being. I think that's the case for any mental disability (again, whether or not someone describes their own experiences with autism as a disability or as a difference is irrelevant to what I'm talking about). But if you want an extreme example from the "disability" side of things, you can't go to someone with alzheimers and get mad at them for not remembering what they ate yesterday. If you want to interact positively with someone in that position, you have to work with them. You have to be able to understand what's happening. A lot of social institutions (especially schools) for a long time never put in that work for autistic kids. And a lot of care for autistic people (including people who are best described as disabled) is still focused on making that person more convenient for society, not on caring specifically for that individual. One piece of advice I give when talking about autism care is "find someone who cares more about the autistic kid than they care about the parents." And I think that holds true both for neurodivergent and differently-abled people and for nonverbal kids who are extremely disabled and will require help to function in society for their entire lives. It doesn't matter, caring for that person should still be primarily focused on caring for that person, not the people around them.

slibhb 4y ago

Isn't that inevitable given that the vast majority of people aren't autistic?

infamouscow 4y ago
So it's okay because the vast majority of people aren't affected? By that rationale, Black, Asian, and LGBT Americans should keep to themselves and stop fighting for rights or having a voice. In both cases we are talking about people with immutable traits or characteristics society as a whole isn't fond of. (If society was fond, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion, nor people fighting for equal treatment in society.) All of these people have been the victims of the genocidal lunatics in the 20th century. The only difference is society has not progressed to a point where it is socially acceptable to condemn people for hating the neurodivergent.
- slibhb 4y ago
  No one is talking about rights. Autistic people have the same rights as gay people and black people. What we're talking about are norms. Norms tend to be based on the average person. If you aren't average, you're going to have to deal with that. I don't see any other solution.
  - infamouscow 4y ago
    If you had a time machine and went back to the 1950s, people would be making the same argument for why Black, Asian, and LGBT Americans are just going to have to deal with being minorities. edit: typo
    - slibhb 4y ago
      Blacks, Asians, Jews, Muslims, gays etc still have to "deal with being minorities". Again, you're conflating norms and rights.
      - infamouscow 4y ago