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Doesn't the service provider (AT&T or whoever) have a copy of the messages they could subpoena? It seems shocking to me that deleting the messages off the phon

Doesn't the service provider (AT&T or whoever) have a copy of the messages they could subpoena? It seems shocking to me that deleting the messages off the phones makes them inaccessible to prosecution, when presumably there are backups on multiple servers controlled by telecom companies and other government entities.

Rimintil 4y ago
It makes no sense that a telcom would be 'backing up' your SMS (or maybe not even SMS -- could all be iMessage which the telcom doesn't see) texts. What reason would they have to do so? Where's the business value of storing all of that data, supporting the infrastructure, supporting restore requests from customers?
- justinclift 4y ago
  Some countries have legislation around this. eg telecoms providers must at all times keep the latest 2 days worth of SMS messages from all subscribers
  - late2part 4y ago
    Just long enough to be quickly copied off if appropriate filters exist.
- from 4y ago
  Here is a graphic from a VICE article: https://video-images.vice.com/_uncategorized/1634930279896-retentionperiods.png https://video-images.vice.com/_uncategorized/1634930279896-r... Actual message content is kept only for a short period of time.
- chaostheory 4y ago
  The carriers themselves likely wouldn’t do it. The government just needs a data hose https://www.dhs.gov/fusion-center-locations-and-contact-information https://www.dhs.gov/fusion-center-locations-and-contact-info...
- artificialLimbs 4y ago
  Training data for machine learning. Targeted ads. Punishing your enemies.
- andylynch 4y ago
  Call taping and message archiving via the network is a somewhat popular way of handling these requirements for regulated staff.
ceejayoz 4y ago
Do you want your cell phone provider keeping a history of everything you've ever texted?
- the_doctah 4y ago
  If I was murdered and it would help the investigation, absolutely.
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    That is a big (and vanishingly rare) if, to be balanced against the much wider spread harm.
- dubcanada 4y ago
  You're implying they don't already, when that has been largely proved to be in fact true, they do keep history of every text message.
  - shadowgovt 4y ago
    Actually, this case is an excellent example of why that is probably a conspiracy theory that does not align with reality.
    - orangepurple 4y ago
      The term "conspiracy theory" is a psyop to auto-discredit anything labeled as one.
      - shadowgovt 4y ago
        That notion is just a conspiracy theory by Big Conspiracy to push more conspiracy theories. ;)
      - ceejayoz 4y ago
        Hilariously, this is a conspiracy theory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#Origin_and_Usage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#Origin_and_U... > The earliest known usage was by the American author Charles Astor Bristed, in a letter to the editor published in The New York Times on January 11, 1863. > The term "conspiracy theory" is itself the subject of a conspiracy theory, which posits that the term was popularized by the CIA in order to discredit conspiratorial believers, particularly critics of the Warren Commission, by making them a target of ridicule.
degrees57 4y ago
I don't think they keep them for very long. I know that my organization looked at purchasing Smarsh, which hooks in to the API that providers present so that Smarsh can do it's archiving. IIRC, there was a short time limit (not a whole lot of days) on being able to retrieve the messages from the providers. Also, if I'm a provider, keeping all those text messages is going to be a more of a liability than a benefit. It's an expense for storage and retrieval. I'm not sure they would really make any money off of maintaining a long history; it would be super rare that this would pay off. Better to just state that "after n days, they are gone, we're done. Archiving is up to you, the customer."
Spooky23 4y ago
There’s a difference between police investigations and civil/normal entities. The key thing is to have a policy or practice. If your policy is to purge texts after 7 days, that’s a defensible position. If your behavior is to throw your phone in the river around the time of your communicating about a matter of interest to a litigant, that reflects poorly.
WaitWaitWha 4y ago
All TelCos in all countries have backup of the SMS messages. The key part is for how long and what details. In the US, for example AT&T is only a couple of days; Verizon, 3-10 days for SMS contents. Everything else like subscriber info, call history, tower location, tower dumps, range-to-tower can be years. In EU similar patchwork. (source: me half century in field)
chasil 4y ago
They are certainly able to do so. The only tool that I know of that can encrypt SMS messages is Silence. The source code is quite stale. The fifth amendment allows an individual to refuse to disclose a password in criminal trials (they can be compelled to open biometric locks, hwoever). I don't know if these protections would extend to civil proceedings such as occurred here; if not, the judge could hold such witnesses in contempt. https://silence.im https://silence.im

Rimintil 4y ago

It makes no sense that a telcom would be 'backing up' your SMS (or maybe not even SMS -- could all be iMessage which the telcom doesn't see) texts. What reason would they have to do so? Where's the business value of storing all of that data, supporting the infrastructure, supporting restore requests from customers?

justinclift 4y ago
Some countries have legislation around this. eg telecoms providers must at all times keep the latest 2 days worth of SMS messages from all subscribers
- late2part 4y ago
  Just long enough to be quickly copied off if appropriate filters exist.
from 4y ago
Here is a graphic from a VICE article: https://video-images.vice.com/_uncategorized/1634930279896-retentionperiods.png https://video-images.vice.com/_uncategorized/1634930279896-r... Actual message content is kept only for a short period of time.
chaostheory 4y ago
The carriers themselves likely wouldn’t do it. The government just needs a data hose https://www.dhs.gov/fusion-center-locations-and-contact-information https://www.dhs.gov/fusion-center-locations-and-contact-info...
artificialLimbs 4y ago
Training data for machine learning. Targeted ads. Punishing your enemies.
andylynch 4y ago
Call taping and message archiving via the network is a somewhat popular way of handling these requirements for regulated staff.

ceejayoz 4y ago

Do you want your cell phone provider keeping a history of everything you've ever texted?

the_doctah 4y ago
If I was murdered and it would help the investigation, absolutely.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  That is a big (and vanishingly rare) if, to be balanced against the much wider spread harm.
dubcanada 4y ago
You're implying they don't already, when that has been largely proved to be in fact true, they do keep history of every text message.
- shadowgovt 4y ago
  Actually, this case is an excellent example of why that is probably a conspiracy theory that does not align with reality.
  - orangepurple 4y ago
    The term "conspiracy theory" is a psyop to auto-discredit anything labeled as one.
    - shadowgovt 4y ago
      That notion is just a conspiracy theory by Big Conspiracy to push more conspiracy theories. ;)
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      Hilariously, this is a conspiracy theory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#Origin_and_Usage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#Origin_and_U... > The earliest known usage was by the American author Charles Astor Bristed, in a letter to the editor published in The New York Times on January 11, 1863. > The term "conspiracy theory" is itself the subject of a conspiracy theory, which posits that the term was popularized by the CIA in order to discredit conspiratorial believers, particularly critics of the Warren Commission, by making them a target of ridicule.

degrees57 4y ago

I don't think they keep them for very long. I know that my organization looked at purchasing Smarsh, which hooks in to the API that providers present so that Smarsh can do it's archiving. IIRC, there was a short time limit (not a whole lot of days) on being able to retrieve the messages from the providers. Also, if I'm a provider, keeping all those text messages is going to be a more of a liability than a benefit. It's an expense for storage and retrieval. I'm not sure they would really make any money off of maintaining a long history; it would be super rare that this would pay off. Better to just state that "after n days, they are gone, we're done. Archiving is up to you, the customer."

Spooky23 4y ago

There’s a difference between police investigations and civil/normal entities. The key thing is to have a policy or practice. If your policy is to purge texts after 7 days, that’s a defensible position. If your behavior is to throw your phone in the river around the time of your communicating about a matter of interest to a litigant, that reflects poorly.

WaitWaitWha 4y ago

All TelCos in all countries have backup of the SMS messages. The key part is for how long and what details. In the US, for example AT&T is only a couple of days; Verizon, 3-10 days for SMS contents. Everything else like subscriber info, call history, tower location, tower dumps, range-to-tower can be years. In EU similar patchwork. (source: me half century in field)

chasil 4y ago

They are certainly able to do so. The only tool that I know of that can encrypt SMS messages is Silence. The source code is quite stale. The fifth amendment allows an individual to refuse to disclose a password in criminal trials (they can be compelled to open biometric locks, hwoever). I don't know if these protections would extend to civil proceedings such as occurred here; if not, the judge could hold such witnesses in contempt. https://silence.im https://silence.im