7 ms·

An expertise acceleration experiment in Judo

84 points by jger15 4y ago

hermitcrab 4y ago
I did some judo back in the day. But found it demoralizing to be 'stiff-armed' by people who were just bigger and stronger (which is most people, in my case). I much preferred Japanese ju-jitsu, where you could kick or punch people who tried to stiff-arm you or stood still in randori. I think it is quite sad that judo and taekwondo have become olympic sports. The emphasis on winning and rules has taken away far more than it has given (IMHO). Also, even as a martial arts fan, I think both are really boring to watch. Judo is mostly 2 guys trying not to move. Taekwondo is mostly 2 guys alternately bouncing up and down and hugging each other. How do you make a sport where people are trying to kick each other in the head boring? The olympics managed it.
- riku_iki 4y ago
  > Judo is mostly 2 guys trying not to move. I am not judoka, but I really enjoy watching judo matches. It looks to me like long positional game with the goal to achieve dominant position and catch sub-second opportunity window to perform explosive winning movement. Also, I like that techniques are not brute force, but with the goal to put opponent off the balance, or find some angle for attack.
- ProAm 4y ago
  > But found it demoralizing to be 'stiff-armed' by people who were just bigger and stronger (which is most people, in my case) Why let them get a grip? It's strategy. Bigger means higher center of gravity, which is easier to throw. > The emphasis on winning and rules has taken away far more than it has given (IMHO). I completely agree. The IJF has ruined the sport of competitive judo. They would rather make a new rule about something being illegal than evolve the sport.
- yodsanklai 4y ago
  > But found it demoralizing to be 'stiff-armed' by people who were just bigger and stronger This is why Judo (like most combat sports) is weight-class sport. That being said, technique can compensate weight difference to some extent. > Judo is mostly 2 guys trying not to move That's what happened when these guys have almost identical level. If not, one is going to move toward the tatami very fast.
flybrand 4y ago
> I wish such clarity of training and feedback exists in other skill domains. a lot of success as a leader is creating such fast feedback loops for a team
- Nevermark 4y ago
  That sounds like a good principle in managing oneself too. Work in feedback for every mini-milestone into your work rhythm. Training the subconscious to do (automatically know what to do next, want to do it, get on it) is the self-management goal. Do something measurable, and arrange things to experience some meaningful response to any milestone. I may be doing this when I design and code in different rooms of my house. Obviously speed isn't the main point of either task. But my subconscious definitely registers "I completed an actionable part of the design" as I move from living room to my study to code. And vice versa. Helps that this mini-milestone context-switching "feedback" is a natural part of doing the work. Part of the flow.
rojotek 4y ago
Very interesting. It feels like a replay of the Josh Waitzkin story, as he told in The Art of Learning.
readthenotes1 4y ago
"My number one advice is don’t focus on yourself, but focus on the strategy to win the points, knowing what you have today. " Steven Brust, in his books, has a recurring advice "do not think about what you can do; think about what needs to be done, and do it"
junglistguy 4y ago
As a judoka with 20 years of experience, I don't know what the hell this article is about.
- jperras 4y ago
  Glad it wasn't just me who was baffled by the whole thing!
pestatije 4y ago
Oh, acceleration in the sense to learn quicker...not physical accel
steele 4y ago
I guess they forgot that sports should be fun.
adamgordonbell 4y ago
I originally found commoncog through hacker news and his insights on deliberate practice (and its limits) were so helpful for me, that I've been following him on twitter and reading everything he puts out. Now, this experiment! I'm excited to learn more. I want to know more about the mental strength work and about constructing drills for softer skills.
enahs-sf 4y ago
Recently got my shodan and can relate to this article and the merits of structured practice. Judo taught me a lot about how to learn a skill as it's really pedagogically laid out by Kano. The method for learning is spelt out in such a way that if you repeat the process then apply what you've learned during randori, you will improve.
maCDzP 4y ago
I practiced BJJ and our black belt advised against “drills” in favor of sparring. Now I train gymnastics and “drills” is basically the name of the game. I prefer the drills, gives a clear feeling of progression that I like.
- thomascgalvin 4y ago
  I think the big difference is that BJJ is meant to be used against a resisting opponent, while gymnastics is not. You can get really good at kata by, well, doing kata, but that doesn't mean you're going to be able to employ your knife-hand block when someone's trying to punch you in the face. That drill lacks an important aspect of the actual practice. On the other hand, if you can pull off an armbar against a guy that's really good at defending armbars, you can almost certainly pull one on a drunk guy in the Kroger's parking lot. Gymnastics doesn't have that dynamic variable. The drill and the skill are largely the same, or the drill is at least a component of a larger skill. There's huge transfer between the two.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
jperras 4y ago
I'm quite interested in the outcome of this "experiment". I wish the best for the OP, but I feel like things will end poorly. I've been a judoka for several years; I also started late, in my 30s. I train 4-5 times a week for 2+ hours a day at one of the best dojos in my country, and my country regularly medals in international events - there's no lack of high-level talent. I've sparred with literal Olympians, and receive instruction from one of the most highly ranked and respected judoka in the world who has produced Olympic medal winning athletes, in addition to our other instructor who was a top 9 finisher in the Olympics, World Cup winner, and multi-year Pan Am champion. And you know what I've found out after all that? Competitive judo is fucking hard. It will brutalize your mind and body in ways you never thought possible. And just when you think you're getting anywhere, you'll have a match with someone at a national/international level, and you feel like you're a day-one white belt getting ragdolled by someone having fun and going at 40% of their competition-level intensity.
- serjester 4y ago
  Similar experience with Brazilian Jui Jutsu. If you pick up these sports late, you fundamentally move differently from the guy that's been fighting since he was a toddler. I can tell you the second someone walks in if they have a wrestling background. Experience helps but every now and then you come across someone that's picks up more in a year than you do in 5. Just look at J Rod winning ADCC's this year as a blue belt.
  - CodeAndCuffs 4y ago
    Ok, so I'm not the only one who's noticed the wrestler walk? Like, something in their posture or their gait. Idk what it is, but you can just eyeball a dude and be like, "yeah he knows what a Granby roll is"
    - cxcee 4y ago
      it's probably the pelvic tilt
    - jmkr 4y ago
tayo42 4y ago
> Loss in Judo is more personal than in other sports. Defeat in a sport like tennis feels bad, but defeat in a fighting sport is crushing in ways that most people do not comprehend. Just this stuck out, this was one of the worst parts of high school wrestling, just two people, one on one more or less fighting. At least in football you can blame it on the team all together.
- dylan604 4y ago
  This is what I came to appreciate about golf as well. There's nobody to blame except yourself when things don't work out, and there's nobody else to steal credit when things go well. Even more so since there's no direct competitor/defender actively interacting with you in ways to prevent you from doing something
- hermitcrab 4y ago
  That is partly a cultural thing though, isn't it? I went to the USA as a camp counsellor in the 80s and was really stuck by the difference in attitude to winning and losing between the UK and US. In the UK it is generally considered ok to lose at sport, as long as you give it your best and conduct yourself in a sportsman-like manner. The US attitude (on my camp, at least) seemed to be to win at all costs. During the final week of sports competition at the camp, the boys would be so psyched up that the losing team would almost always burst into tears. Even the 15 year olds. Not all what you would expect in the UK.
  - tayo42 4y ago
    could be, maybe depends on the sport. but I really couldn't comment on culture of the UK hah. personally at least, i grew up playing sports with friends and losing was ok and happened, sure they were competitive though and maybe the occasional sore loser. high school sports were different for sure. probably to intense for the average kid.
- FartyMcFarter 4y ago
  However, if you're doing it for fun then getting thrown like a ragdoll is actually quite entertaining. Even the parts that hurt are memorable in a good way. I remember someone quite expert performing a move that made my body feel like it was about to split into 4 pieces, but the pain was not that bad and only lasted for a moment (because they knew when to stop). It is amazing (and humbling) to experience first hand what a skilled fighter can do to you in a safe context.
theptip 4y ago
It’s interesting to think about what “atomic drills” would look like for programming. I do “dojos” with my team but it’s usually more “group code review” or “present interesting concept”. I’ve heard folks do mob programming on simple problems (eg “implement fizzbuzz in a few different paradigms”). Perhaps also a little time spent on advent of code would be good too? Everybody on the team does Day X and then we discuss and compare solutions? Edit to add: thinking about drills - what if we merged interviews and team drills, spent some time setting up a realistic work scenario as a drill, and added an interviewee? That way, during an interview the team gets to drill, say, reviewing and debugging a feature rollout. The interviewee gets to actually spend 2-4h in a realistic work simulation instead of solving LeetCode problems.
- anthomtb 4y ago
  "Atomic drills", as done for sports, do not apply well to programming IME. The following will make a lot more sense if you are familiar with the book Thinking Fast and Slow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow), or the research upon which that popularization is based. Atomic drills as performed for sports allow you to use System 2 (slow, deliberate, logical) to train System 1 (fast, reactive, emotional). But when programming you are almost always going to be in System 2. Programming does not deal with instantaneous reactions in the same way sports does. Sure, you might react to a bug report (dammit, Johnson, I told you async was a bad idea for this!) but its not like sports, where by the time you consciously process input your physical reaction should have already occurred. To take the example from the Judo article, if you have formed the thought of "that guy looks about to throw me!" you are probably already on the ground. There may be very time limited, competitive programming events where you need to think so fast that atomic drills can come into play. I do not know of any but they could exist. But basically, when programming, at least on a professional basis, you are not relying on physical reactions to get the job done. And atomic drills are about training physical reactions. There is definitely value, lots of it, to the "realistic work scenarios" you describe, it is just not the same as figuring out the bare fundamentals of a sport and practicing until they are entirely subconscious.
  - 4y ago

84 points by jger15 4y ago

I did some judo back in the day. But found it demoralizing to be 'stiff-armed' by people who were just bigger and stronger (which is most people, in my case). I much preferred Japanese ju-jitsu, where you could kick or punch people who tried to stiff-arm you or stood still in randori. I think it is quite sad that judo and taekwondo have become olympic sports. The emphasis on winning and rules has taken away far more than it has given (IMHO). Also, even as a martial arts fan, I think both are really boring to watch. Judo is mostly 2 guys trying not to move. Taekwondo is mostly 2 guys alternately bouncing up and down and hugging each other. How do you make a sport where people are trying to kick each other in the head boring? The olympics managed it.

riku_iki 4y ago
> Judo is mostly 2 guys trying not to move. I am not judoka, but I really enjoy watching judo matches. It looks to me like long positional game with the goal to achieve dominant position and catch sub-second opportunity window to perform explosive winning movement. Also, I like that techniques are not brute force, but with the goal to put opponent off the balance, or find some angle for attack.
ProAm 4y ago
> But found it demoralizing to be 'stiff-armed' by people who were just bigger and stronger (which is most people, in my case) Why let them get a grip? It's strategy. Bigger means higher center of gravity, which is easier to throw. > The emphasis on winning and rules has taken away far more than it has given (IMHO). I completely agree. The IJF has ruined the sport of competitive judo. They would rather make a new rule about something being illegal than evolve the sport.
yodsanklai 4y ago
> But found it demoralizing to be 'stiff-armed' by people who were just bigger and stronger This is why Judo (like most combat sports) is weight-class sport. That being said, technique can compensate weight difference to some extent. > Judo is mostly 2 guys trying not to move That's what happened when these guys have almost identical level. If not, one is going to move toward the tatami very fast.

flybrand 4y ago

> I wish such clarity of training and feedback exists in other skill domains. a lot of success as a leader is creating such fast feedback loops for a team

Nevermark 4y ago
That sounds like a good principle in managing oneself too. Work in feedback for every mini-milestone into your work rhythm. Training the subconscious to do (automatically know what to do next, want to do it, get on it) is the self-management goal. Do something measurable, and arrange things to experience some meaningful response to any milestone. I may be doing this when I design and code in different rooms of my house. Obviously speed isn't the main point of either task. But my subconscious definitely registers "I completed an actionable part of the design" as I move from living room to my study to code. And vice versa. Helps that this mini-milestone context-switching "feedback" is a natural part of doing the work. Part of the flow.

rojotek 4y ago

Very interesting. It feels like a replay of the Josh Waitzkin story, as he told in The Art of Learning.

readthenotes1 4y ago

"My number one advice is don’t focus on yourself, but focus on the strategy to win the points, knowing what you have today. " Steven Brust, in his books, has a recurring advice "do not think about what you can do; think about what needs to be done, and do it"

junglistguy 4y ago

As a judoka with 20 years of experience, I don't know what the hell this article is about.

jperras 4y ago
Glad it wasn't just me who was baffled by the whole thing!

pestatije 4y ago

Oh, acceleration in the sense to learn quicker...not physical accel

steele 4y ago

I guess they forgot that sports should be fun.

adamgordonbell 4y ago

I originally found commoncog through hacker news and his insights on deliberate practice (and its limits) were so helpful for me, that I've been following him on twitter and reading everything he puts out. Now, this experiment! I'm excited to learn more. I want to know more about the mental strength work and about constructing drills for softer skills.

enahs-sf 4y ago

Recently got my shodan and can relate to this article and the merits of structured practice. Judo taught me a lot about how to learn a skill as it's really pedagogically laid out by Kano. The method for learning is spelt out in such a way that if you repeat the process then apply what you've learned during randori, you will improve.

maCDzP 4y ago

I practiced BJJ and our black belt advised against “drills” in favor of sparring. Now I train gymnastics and “drills” is basically the name of the game. I prefer the drills, gives a clear feeling of progression that I like.

thomascgalvin 4y ago
I think the big difference is that BJJ is meant to be used against a resisting opponent, while gymnastics is not. You can get really good at kata by, well, doing kata, but that doesn't mean you're going to be able to employ your knife-hand block when someone's trying to punch you in the face. That drill lacks an important aspect of the actual practice. On the other hand, if you can pull off an armbar against a guy that's really good at defending armbars, you can almost certainly pull one on a drunk guy in the Kroger's parking lot. Gymnastics doesn't have that dynamic variable. The drill and the skill are largely the same, or the drill is at least a component of a larger skill. There's huge transfer between the two.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

jperras 4y ago

I'm quite interested in the outcome of this "experiment". I wish the best for the OP, but I feel like things will end poorly. I've been a judoka for several years; I also started late, in my 30s. I train 4-5 times a week for 2+ hours a day at one of the best dojos in my country, and my country regularly medals in international events - there's no lack of high-level talent. I've sparred with literal Olympians, and receive instruction from one of the most highly ranked and respected judoka in the world who has produced Olympic medal winning athletes, in addition to our other instructor who was a top 9 finisher in the Olympics, World Cup winner, and multi-year Pan Am champion. And you know what I've found out after all that? Competitive judo is fucking hard. It will brutalize your mind and body in ways you never thought possible. And just when you think you're getting anywhere, you'll have a match with someone at a national/international level, and you feel like you're a day-one white belt getting ragdolled by someone having fun and going at 40% of their competition-level intensity.

serjester 4y ago
Similar experience with Brazilian Jui Jutsu. If you pick up these sports late, you fundamentally move differently from the guy that's been fighting since he was a toddler. I can tell you the second someone walks in if they have a wrestling background. Experience helps but every now and then you come across someone that's picks up more in a year than you do in 5. Just look at J Rod winning ADCC's this year as a blue belt.
- CodeAndCuffs 4y ago
  Ok, so I'm not the only one who's noticed the wrestler walk? Like, something in their posture or their gait. Idk what it is, but you can just eyeball a dude and be like, "yeah he knows what a Granby roll is"
  - cxcee 4y ago
    it's probably the pelvic tilt
  - jmkr 4y ago

tayo42 4y ago

> Loss in Judo is more personal than in other sports. Defeat in a sport like tennis feels bad, but defeat in a fighting sport is crushing in ways that most people do not comprehend. Just this stuck out, this was one of the worst parts of high school wrestling, just two people, one on one more or less fighting. At least in football you can blame it on the team all together.

dylan604 4y ago
This is what I came to appreciate about golf as well. There's nobody to blame except yourself when things don't work out, and there's nobody else to steal credit when things go well. Even more so since there's no direct competitor/defender actively interacting with you in ways to prevent you from doing something
hermitcrab 4y ago
That is partly a cultural thing though, isn't it? I went to the USA as a camp counsellor in the 80s and was really stuck by the difference in attitude to winning and losing between the UK and US. In the UK it is generally considered ok to lose at sport, as long as you give it your best and conduct yourself in a sportsman-like manner. The US attitude (on my camp, at least) seemed to be to win at all costs. During the final week of sports competition at the camp, the boys would be so psyched up that the losing team would almost always burst into tears. Even the 15 year olds. Not all what you would expect in the UK.
- tayo42 4y ago
  could be, maybe depends on the sport. but I really couldn't comment on culture of the UK hah. personally at least, i grew up playing sports with friends and losing was ok and happened, sure they were competitive though and maybe the occasional sore loser. high school sports were different for sure. probably to intense for the average kid.
FartyMcFarter 4y ago
However, if you're doing it for fun then getting thrown like a ragdoll is actually quite entertaining. Even the parts that hurt are memorable in a good way. I remember someone quite expert performing a move that made my body feel like it was about to split into 4 pieces, but the pain was not that bad and only lasted for a moment (because they knew when to stop). It is amazing (and humbling) to experience first hand what a skilled fighter can do to you in a safe context.

theptip 4y ago

It’s interesting to think about what “atomic drills” would look like for programming. I do “dojos” with my team but it’s usually more “group code review” or “present interesting concept”. I’ve heard folks do mob programming on simple problems (eg “implement fizzbuzz in a few different paradigms”). Perhaps also a little time spent on advent of code would be good too? Everybody on the team does Day X and then we discuss and compare solutions? Edit to add: thinking about drills - what if we merged interviews and team drills, spent some time setting up a realistic work scenario as a drill, and added an interviewee? That way, during an interview the team gets to drill, say, reviewing and debugging a feature rollout. The interviewee gets to actually spend 2-4h in a realistic work simulation instead of solving LeetCode problems.

anthomtb 4y ago
"Atomic drills", as done for sports, do not apply well to programming IME. The following will make a lot more sense if you are familiar with the book Thinking Fast and Slow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow), or the research upon which that popularization is based. Atomic drills as performed for sports allow you to use System 2 (slow, deliberate, logical) to train System 1 (fast, reactive, emotional). But when programming you are almost always going to be in System 2. Programming does not deal with instantaneous reactions in the same way sports does. Sure, you might react to a bug report (dammit, Johnson, I told you async was a bad idea for this!) but its not like sports, where by the time you consciously process input your physical reaction should have already occurred. To take the example from the Judo article, if you have formed the thought of "that guy looks about to throw me!" you are probably already on the ground. There may be very time limited, competitive programming events where you need to think so fast that atomic drills can come into play. I do not know of any but they could exist. But basically, when programming, at least on a professional basis, you are not relying on physical reactions to get the job done. And atomic drills are about training physical reactions. There is definitely value, lots of it, to the "realistic work scenarios" you describe, it is just not the same as figuring out the bare fundamentals of a sport and practicing until they are entirely subconscious.
- 4y ago