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I don’t think that car ownership is related to poverty or absence of disposable income. In fact, a well off person in a well functioning city has little if any

I don’t think that car ownership is related to poverty or absence of disposable income. In fact, a well off person in a well functioning city has little if any reason to own a car and can get away without one. Subreddits like r/solarpunk, r/fuckcars, r/notjustbikes, along with the push for 15 minute cities are a testament that young people dont want to be in the grip of petrol companies or owning a car as they are not sustainable, cause traffic, accidents, and on and on.

BizarreByte 4y ago
> In fact, a well off person in a well functioning city has little if any reason to own a car and can get away without one. You can get away without one, that is if you don’t mind sharing transit with violent junkies in any North American city. Transit can be down right terrifying to use these days.
- afunctionof 4y ago
  I would be interested in seeing a graph comparing the rate of automobile fatalities to the rate of public transit fatalities.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    I'm not sure what value there would be in that comparison. Cars and public transit are not filling the same role in society, regardless of how often that claim is made on HN. And that's completely ignoring the counterfactual of how mortality overall would change if we actually tried to make public transit fill all the roles cars have today.
- knowledge-clay 4y ago
  I’ve relied on public transit for 7 years in 3 different cities and never once have I encountered a “violent junkie”. It’s far safer to take transit than to drive. Cars kill 40,000 people a year in the US. Cars are the leading cause of death for Americans age 15-24. These are deaths we just normalize and wave away because it’s the living cost of car-dependent infrastructure. But it’s not and shouldn’t be normal or acceptable. => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- armchairhacker 4y ago
  It depends. Anecdotally, in Boston the MBTA is one of the "falling apart" systems. I could still rely on it to commute to my college / job, and the worst that has happened was sometimes being late due to delays. There are certainly a lot of sketchy people, but I have never seen someone attacked or have anything stolen or been harassed myself - then again I am a man and I'm certain it's different for women. But more importantly, when living in Boston I never had to use the train. Only when commuting. Because when I lived in Boston everything was at most a 3 mile walk. Even in the really bad weather I could layer up still get places without public transit. Now I'm in a less urban area but it's the same: I don't have a car and rarely end up using transit / Lyft. I do get groceries and things delivered though, but my job and everything else is within walking distance. I still agree it would be a lot better if public transit was more reliable, but I think many people in cities can be well-off without a car. Not anecdotally I know that most of the college students in Boston don't have a car (especially because there is basically no parking...)
  - dublinben 4y ago
    There's no shortage of parking in Boston, the market price of $40/day or $400 a month is just unaffordable for most college students. The ones driving exotic sports cars sure don't have any problem finding parking in the city. As you point out, when you can find all of life's necessities within a reasonable walking distance, the need to own a car is significantly diminished. That's the goal that "anti-car" activists are pushing for.
rootusrootus 4y ago
> Subreddits like r/solarpunk, r/fuckcars, r/notjustbikes, along with the push for 15 minute cities are a testament ... that the Internet is dominated by the small niche of loud people who think other people want to hear their opinion. That's it. Anybody who is not deep inside the Reddit (and HN, for that matter) bubble can quickly appreciate how dissimilar the viewpoints on Reddit are from the real world.
- PartiallyTyped 4y ago
  Yes, most people are lurkers. That doesn't mean that lurkers can't show their presence with interactions in the form of up or downvotes or that the different subreddits, hashtags, and so on aren't a mirror of the user base. Now, I understand your cynicism, but you'd be naive to believe that small pockets of change are not happening. But then again, what does a European know about European cities? Anyhow, I found this somewhere on HN, I am certain you will enjoy the irony. > everyone is preening, bragging, trying to seem better than you, claiming to have the moral high ground, or the only correct answer.
  - danaris 4y ago
    > Yes, most people are lurkers. No, most people are not on Reddit.
  - luckylion 4y ago
    Berlin is super progressive. You absolutely don't need a car in Berlin. Berlin certainly has the highest percentage of people (in Germany) aggressively telling everyone that you shouldn't want a car. Around 30% of households in Berlin do not own a car. The "I like bikes and I bike everywhere" group is a small minority. I know, I'm one of them. As soon as it's even slightly rainy mine is the only bike in front of the super market (though I'm sure it would be slightly different in Berlin, or at least in some parts of Berlin). But if you looked at surveys, you'd think that driving your car to the super market would be the exception. People on reddit talking about how much they hate cars aren't representative.
    - 4y ago
randomdata 4y ago
> a well off person in a well functioning city has little if any reason to own a car Even in this small town (~2,000 people) in which I live I have almost no reason for a car. Everything I need is in comfortable walking distance... Other than family and friends who live in other places that I like to visit from time to time. When I was young there was enough economic hardship around that people had to disperse to make a living, leaving those social ties I established all over the place. With the strong economy we've been living for a number of years one has been comfortably able to stay put; living a great life anywhere they want. Now everyone in your life is able to remain close. If I could walk to their homes, that would certainly remove the last reason I keep a car. The younger people have that option. I wonder if that's what has changed?

BizarreByte 4y ago

> In fact, a well off person in a well functioning city has little if any reason to own a car and can get away without one. You can get away without one, that is if you don’t mind sharing transit with violent junkies in any North American city. Transit can be down right terrifying to use these days.

afunctionof 4y ago
I would be interested in seeing a graph comparing the rate of automobile fatalities to the rate of public transit fatalities.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  I'm not sure what value there would be in that comparison. Cars and public transit are not filling the same role in society, regardless of how often that claim is made on HN. And that's completely ignoring the counterfactual of how mortality overall would change if we actually tried to make public transit fill all the roles cars have today.
knowledge-clay 4y ago
I’ve relied on public transit for 7 years in 3 different cities and never once have I encountered a “violent junkie”. It’s far safer to take transit than to drive. Cars kill 40,000 people a year in the US. Cars are the leading cause of death for Americans age 15-24. These are deaths we just normalize and wave away because it’s the living cost of car-dependent infrastructure. But it’s not and shouldn’t be normal or acceptable. => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
armchairhacker 4y ago
It depends. Anecdotally, in Boston the MBTA is one of the "falling apart" systems. I could still rely on it to commute to my college / job, and the worst that has happened was sometimes being late due to delays. There are certainly a lot of sketchy people, but I have never seen someone attacked or have anything stolen or been harassed myself - then again I am a man and I'm certain it's different for women. But more importantly, when living in Boston I never had to use the train. Only when commuting. Because when I lived in Boston everything was at most a 3 mile walk. Even in the really bad weather I could layer up still get places without public transit. Now I'm in a less urban area but it's the same: I don't have a car and rarely end up using transit / Lyft. I do get groceries and things delivered though, but my job and everything else is within walking distance. I still agree it would be a lot better if public transit was more reliable, but I think many people in cities can be well-off without a car. Not anecdotally I know that most of the college students in Boston don't have a car (especially because there is basically no parking...)
- dublinben 4y ago
  There's no shortage of parking in Boston, the market price of $40/day or $400 a month is just unaffordable for most college students. The ones driving exotic sports cars sure don't have any problem finding parking in the city. As you point out, when you can find all of life's necessities within a reasonable walking distance, the need to own a car is significantly diminished. That's the goal that "anti-car" activists are pushing for.

rootusrootus 4y ago

> Subreddits like r/solarpunk, r/fuckcars, r/notjustbikes, along with the push for 15 minute cities are a testament ... that the Internet is dominated by the small niche of loud people who think other people want to hear their opinion. That's it. Anybody who is not deep inside the Reddit (and HN, for that matter) bubble can quickly appreciate how dissimilar the viewpoints on Reddit are from the real world.

PartiallyTyped 4y ago
Yes, most people are lurkers. That doesn't mean that lurkers can't show their presence with interactions in the form of up or downvotes or that the different subreddits, hashtags, and so on aren't a mirror of the user base. Now, I understand your cynicism, but you'd be naive to believe that small pockets of change are not happening. But then again, what does a European know about European cities? Anyhow, I found this somewhere on HN, I am certain you will enjoy the irony. > everyone is preening, bragging, trying to seem better than you, claiming to have the moral high ground, or the only correct answer.
- danaris 4y ago
  > Yes, most people are lurkers. No, most people are not on Reddit.
- luckylion 4y ago
  Berlin is super progressive. You absolutely don't need a car in Berlin. Berlin certainly has the highest percentage of people (in Germany) aggressively telling everyone that you shouldn't want a car. Around 30% of households in Berlin do not own a car. The "I like bikes and I bike everywhere" group is a small minority. I know, I'm one of them. As soon as it's even slightly rainy mine is the only bike in front of the super market (though I'm sure it would be slightly different in Berlin, or at least in some parts of Berlin). But if you looked at surveys, you'd think that driving your car to the super market would be the exception. People on reddit talking about how much they hate cars aren't representative.
  - 4y ago

randomdata 4y ago

> a well off person in a well functioning city has little if any reason to own a car Even in this small town (~2,000 people) in which I live I have almost no reason for a car. Everything I need is in comfortable walking distance... Other than family and friends who live in other places that I like to visit from time to time. When I was young there was enough economic hardship around that people had to disperse to make a living, leaving those social ties I established all over the place. With the strong economy we've been living for a number of years one has been comfortably able to stay put; living a great life anywhere they want. Now everyone in your life is able to remain close. If I could walk to their homes, that would certainly remove the last reason I keep a car. The younger people have that option. I wonder if that's what has changed?