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It is disappointing to me that how this issue impacts men is largely brushed aside. It is well documented that testosterone levels have greatly declined in the

by lumb63 4y ago

It is disappointing to me that how this issue impacts men is largely brushed aside. It is well documented that testosterone levels have greatly declined in the last 100 years. If you couple these two facts, it seems impossible they are incorrect. And when this topic comes up, the responses are generally, “who cares?” First, attention is diverted from the male to fertility, because the issue must be seen as impacting females negatively to justify any interest by society. Second, the way this impacts boys and men is entirely ignored. Responses exist like, “we just need a way to reproduce without men”, or “everyone can just use IVF and still have children”. I worry very few people respect how being wished out of existence so that females can enjoy plastics and pesticides impacts men. Very few people respect how demeaning it is for men to be infertile and how this would impact their mental health. Very few people respect how being unable to produce the hormones that allow boys to develop correctly or men to perform their biological functions impacts men. It is wholly disheartening. If there were even the slightest indication that something similar impacted women only, I doubt we would be here discussing whether or not the effect was real, but instead, what should we do about it? Instead, since sperm count and testosterone levels are “men’s issues”, nobody cares unless it can be shown to impact the other 50% of society that apparently is the only portion deserving of any care.

dokem 4y ago
I get what your saying but I don't think you actually want what you're asking for. What would this 'caring' even be good for? Because I don't get the impression that it would actually solve anything right now and only serve to infect the male demographic with the all-to-common victim mentality. From an individual perspective if testosterone is such a concern you can do trt and remove yourself from this issue. And while ivf isn't ideal and I'm not currently in the market to have children right now, I don't see that route as causing existential stress in me personally or calling my masculinity into question in any meaningful way.
mariusor 4y ago
You are right that questioning the testosterone levels should be done, but the way you're framing the issue feels very disingenuous. You could be stuck in a bubble of discourse that matches what you're saying, but consider that maybe looking at the issue with the perspective "this wouldn't happen if women were affected" is not constructive. PS. Also Scott has a good track record of revisiting articles he wrote if new elements come up from readers or specialists. Let's hope that someone out there in his subscribers list will make the same pertinent observation - reading through the comments, there are a couple of mentions already.
- ericmay 4y ago
  Could you expand specifically on what you find disingenuous?
  - mariusor 4y ago
    We are comment on an article which is built upon studies that are most definitely not brushing the issue aside and saying "who cares". I consider myself a pretty seasoned user of the internet and I have yet to stumble in online spaces that are framing the issue in terms of “we just need a way to reproduce without men”, or “everyone can just use IVF and still have children”. Most of all I have an issue - as a male of an age where thinking about the next generation is a thing to be done - with claiming that if similar issues would happen to women they would be taken more seriously. Framing the issue as a men vs women one is not, like I said, constructive in any way. The parent is conflating the decreasing sperm count with decreasing testosterone levels, mostly because they seem so closely related as to be the same issue - but which is not mentioned in Scott's article or in the studies he discusses, and presents that as a problem that affects young boys and prevents their development. If this is indeed the case I would like to see some substantiating to the claim.
    - yucky 4y ago
      Do you feel the same about all of the coverage dedicated to issues that affect women more than men? That the framing in those cases is not constructive? Or in matters of issues presented as impacted one race more than another?
      - NineStarPoint 4y ago
        They weren’t claiming that they had an issue with the article talking about an issue that affects men. They were taking an issue with the framing of the commenter that changed the framing into a “mens issues vs womens issues” thing, which is very distinct from just talking about an issue that only affects a certain subsection of humanity.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
beecafe 4y ago
Any proof for this assertion? Given that the majority of people in power (i.e, the actual decision makers) are men I'm pretty sure they would be happy to act in their self interest.
- acuozzo 4y ago
  The majority of the men in power don't have to jump through hoops or overcome legal hurdles to make these problems go away, so why should they care?
abandonliberty 4y ago
Don't worry, you can find plenty of examples where society or medicine ignored the needs or voices of women. Combative narratives are suboptimal. They are alienating to those you complain about, when obtaining their support would further your cause. It's possible, and more effective, to advance men's rights without complaining about women, or any other rights movement. Not everything has to be Us vs Them. I'd much rather live in a world where it isn't.
- willcipriano 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - willcipriano 4y ago
      Of course not they are perfect and without flaw. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-are-wonderful_effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-are-wonderful_effect
      - dang 4y ago
        Please don't take HN threads further into ideological flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - tablespoon 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - 4y ago
Balgair 4y ago
> It is well documented that testosterone levels have greatly declined in the last 100 years. One factor is the decline in smoking. Nicotine raises testosterone levels. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17163954/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17163954/ Nicotine is a drug like any other and has all kinds of side effects, some that can be seen as beneficial. Like, if you think you're going to get shot in the next 3 hours, yeah, you should probably smoke a cigarette. Otherwise, stay away from the stuff.
- idrathernot 4y ago
  So smoking actually does make you cooler!
jgil 4y ago
> I worry very few people respect how being wished out of existence so that females can enjoy plastics and pesticides impacts men. This is an incredibly sexist framing. No person “enjoys” industrial pollution.
- flangola7 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - kerpotgh 4y ago
    [dead]
  - marcellus23 4y ago
    Did we read the same comment? He uses the words men, women, males, and females. edit: the comment I originally replied to said something like "he uses the word females instead of women, that's a red flag". It's since been updated to just say he sounds like an MRA (why?) and I guess we're supposed to interpret that as a bad thing (because... why?)
cantSpellSober 4y ago
> nobody cares unless it can be shown to impact the other 50% of society that apparently is the only portion deserving of any care I guess no one informed the author of this article, or the numerous studies cited here. Please refrain from hollow unsubstantiated rants on HN. Someone can point to your copypasta comment and say "see, another one of those 'men's rights' loonies!"; you're only hurting men. Men and women's issues are not a zero-sum game.
ditto664 4y ago
It's a silent epidemic.
bitcurious 4y ago
>And when this topic comes up, the responses are generally, “who cares?” >because the issue must be seen as impacting females negatively to justify any interest by society Huge cognitive leap between these two sentences. My response is closer to "who cares?" than panic. My reasoning has nothing to do with women. Are men with lower (but functional) testosterone less capable of happy, productive lives? I haven't seen any evidence to support that thesis. Therefore, who cares. Is sperm production a major bottleneck in human reproduction? I haven't seen any evidence to support that. Therefore, who cares. Fluctuation within the very wide ranges of "enough sperm" and "enough testosterone" doesn't really matter.
- sithadmin 4y ago
  Low testosterone levels in men is correlated with depression and anxiety; inversely, testosterone replacement therapies are correlated with reduction of symptoms of depression and anxiety. A few sources (many more out there and easy to find): [1]https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2015.00061/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2015.0006... [2]https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/2712976 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/... [3]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24047633/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24047633/ You can find similar studies showing the same correlation in adolescent males.
sublinear 4y ago
You seem to be upset about identity politics, but then proceed to make an argument about identity and social acceptance. None of these details you mention are relevant to the actual problem. Anyway, there's much clearer evidence supporting the idea that poor mental health (anxiety, depression, etc.) can cause infertility in men due to elevated levels of cortisol, and you sound very stressed out.
chmod600 4y ago
I don't think it's necessarily a sexist phenomenon. A lot of our cultural leaders generally seem to be pushing us toward a weird and sterile (literally and figuratively) existence. Men are encouraged to be less masculine, and women less feminine, and everyone discouraged from having children. More comfort and less creation.
- hungryforcodes 4y ago
  There is something oddly true about this. And it comes at a time when overpopulation is a huge concern. I'm not a conspiracy theory person though...

by lumb63 4y ago

dokem 4y ago

I get what your saying but I don't think you actually want what you're asking for. What would this 'caring' even be good for? Because I don't get the impression that it would actually solve anything right now and only serve to infect the male demographic with the all-to-common victim mentality. From an individual perspective if testosterone is such a concern you can do trt and remove yourself from this issue. And while ivf isn't ideal and I'm not currently in the market to have children right now, I don't see that route as causing existential stress in me personally or calling my masculinity into question in any meaningful way.

mariusor 4y ago

You are right that questioning the testosterone levels should be done, but the way you're framing the issue feels very disingenuous. You could be stuck in a bubble of discourse that matches what you're saying, but consider that maybe looking at the issue with the perspective "this wouldn't happen if women were affected" is not constructive. PS. Also Scott has a good track record of revisiting articles he wrote if new elements come up from readers or specialists. Let's hope that someone out there in his subscribers list will make the same pertinent observation - reading through the comments, there are a couple of mentions already.

ericmay 4y ago
Could you expand specifically on what you find disingenuous?
- mariusor 4y ago
  We are comment on an article which is built upon studies that are most definitely not brushing the issue aside and saying "who cares". I consider myself a pretty seasoned user of the internet and I have yet to stumble in online spaces that are framing the issue in terms of “we just need a way to reproduce without men”, or “everyone can just use IVF and still have children”. Most of all I have an issue - as a male of an age where thinking about the next generation is a thing to be done - with claiming that if similar issues would happen to women they would be taken more seriously. Framing the issue as a men vs women one is not, like I said, constructive in any way. The parent is conflating the decreasing sperm count with decreasing testosterone levels, mostly because they seem so closely related as to be the same issue - but which is not mentioned in Scott's article or in the studies he discusses, and presents that as a problem that affects young boys and prevents their development. If this is indeed the case I would like to see some substantiating to the claim.
  - yucky 4y ago
    Do you feel the same about all of the coverage dedicated to issues that affect women more than men? That the framing in those cases is not constructive? Or in matters of issues presented as impacted one race more than another?
    - NineStarPoint 4y ago
      They weren’t claiming that they had an issue with the article talking about an issue that affects men. They were taking an issue with the framing of the commenter that changed the framing into a “mens issues vs womens issues” thing, which is very distinct from just talking about an issue that only affects a certain subsection of humanity.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

beecafe 4y ago

Any proof for this assertion? Given that the majority of people in power (i.e, the actual decision makers) are men I'm pretty sure they would be happy to act in their self interest.

acuozzo 4y ago
The majority of the men in power don't have to jump through hoops or overcome legal hurdles to make these problems go away, so why should they care?

abandonliberty 4y ago

Don't worry, you can find plenty of examples where society or medicine ignored the needs or voices of women. Combative narratives are suboptimal. They are alienating to those you complain about, when obtaining their support would further your cause. It's possible, and more effective, to advance men's rights without complaining about women, or any other rights movement. Not everything has to be Us vs Them. I'd much rather live in a world where it isn't.

willcipriano 4y ago
[flagged]
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - willcipriano 4y ago
    Of course not they are perfect and without flaw. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-are-wonderful_effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-are-wonderful_effect
    - dang 4y ago
      Please don't take HN threads further into ideological flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - 4y ago

Balgair 4y ago

> It is well documented that testosterone levels have greatly declined in the last 100 years. One factor is the decline in smoking. Nicotine raises testosterone levels. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17163954/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17163954/ Nicotine is a drug like any other and has all kinds of side effects, some that can be seen as beneficial. Like, if you think you're going to get shot in the next 3 hours, yeah, you should probably smoke a cigarette. Otherwise, stay away from the stuff.

idrathernot 4y ago
So smoking actually does make you cooler!

jgil 4y ago

> I worry very few people respect how being wished out of existence so that females can enjoy plastics and pesticides impacts men. This is an incredibly sexist framing. No person “enjoys” industrial pollution.

flangola7 4y ago
[flagged]
- kerpotgh 4y ago
  [dead]
- marcellus23 4y ago
  Did we read the same comment? He uses the words men, women, males, and females. edit: the comment I originally replied to said something like "he uses the word females instead of women, that's a red flag". It's since been updated to just say he sounds like an MRA (why?) and I guess we're supposed to interpret that as a bad thing (because... why?)

cantSpellSober 4y ago

> nobody cares unless it can be shown to impact the other 50% of society that apparently is the only portion deserving of any care I guess no one informed the author of this article, or the numerous studies cited here. Please refrain from hollow unsubstantiated rants on HN. Someone can point to your copypasta comment and say "see, another one of those 'men's rights' loonies!"; you're only hurting men. Men and women's issues are not a zero-sum game.

ditto664 4y ago

It's a silent epidemic.

bitcurious 4y ago

>And when this topic comes up, the responses are generally, “who cares?” >because the issue must be seen as impacting females negatively to justify any interest by society Huge cognitive leap between these two sentences. My response is closer to "who cares?" than panic. My reasoning has nothing to do with women. Are men with lower (but functional) testosterone less capable of happy, productive lives? I haven't seen any evidence to support that thesis. Therefore, who cares. Is sperm production a major bottleneck in human reproduction? I haven't seen any evidence to support that. Therefore, who cares. Fluctuation within the very wide ranges of "enough sperm" and "enough testosterone" doesn't really matter.

sithadmin 4y ago
Low testosterone levels in men is correlated with depression and anxiety; inversely, testosterone replacement therapies are correlated with reduction of symptoms of depression and anxiety. A few sources (many more out there and easy to find): [1]https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2015.00061/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2015.0006... [2]https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/2712976 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/... [3]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24047633/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24047633/ You can find similar studies showing the same correlation in adolescent males.

sublinear 4y ago

You seem to be upset about identity politics, but then proceed to make an argument about identity and social acceptance. None of these details you mention are relevant to the actual problem. Anyway, there's much clearer evidence supporting the idea that poor mental health (anxiety, depression, etc.) can cause infertility in men due to elevated levels of cortisol, and you sound very stressed out.

chmod600 4y ago

I don't think it's necessarily a sexist phenomenon. A lot of our cultural leaders generally seem to be pushing us toward a weird and sterile (literally and figuratively) existence. Men are encouraged to be less masculine, and women less feminine, and everyone discouraged from having children. More comfort and less creation.

hungryforcodes 4y ago
There is something oddly true about this. And it comes at a time when overpopulation is a huge concern. I'm not a conspiracy theory person though...