7 ms·

Interestingly I feel like humans have this as well, sometimes. Sometimes if someone is working though a complex thought and they're not really sure where they'

by SamBam 4y ago

Interestingly I feel like humans have this as well, sometimes. Sometimes if someone is working though a complex thought and they're not really sure where they're going, they'll pause while thinking of the word they want to use, and might sound like "the discussion is an... an... epistemological one" Obviously they may have been conscious that the next word was going to start with "epi..." and they are just trying to remember the word, but I think sometimes they really don't consciously know what they're going to say, only unconsciously. It reminds me of a recent New Yorker article about how people think, where the author realized they often have no idea what they're about to say before they open their mouths. [1] 1. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/01/16/how-should-we-think-about-our-different-styles-of-thinking https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/01/16/how-should-we-...

Thorentis 4y ago
When you say "they have no idea about what they're about to say" you're talking about conscious thought. I think there is a difference between rational thought (thinking by going through a series of logically connected steps) and intuition, where you can arrive at a conclusion or knowledge of some fact or concept or knowing how to do something, without having gone through those conscious steps. Does one count as "thoughts" any less than the other? People are sometimes so quick to dismiss any subconscious thinking as being nothing more than a very complicated computer, but I couldn't disagree more.
- nerdponx 4y ago
  Well I think that's the point. We know that our minds engage in a large amount of pattern matching/recognition/retrieval. Perhaps this hugely-powerful pattern-matching information-retrieval engine has learned to perform similarly to human minds, being trained exclusively on the output of human minds.
- gmadsen 4y ago
  I tend to take the view that thoughts are very similar to sensory input. if you sit in silence for 60 seconds, you literally do not and can not predict what thoughts pop up in consciousness. You can actively focus attention on a thought, but if you try to find the source of the thought, it disapears. Thoughts just appear, just like sounds, sight, etc just appear.
- jetsnoc 4y ago
  Intuition is another cognitive process honed by training and reinforcement of neurons through all sorts of sensories and feedback to our brain. I think parallel models not unlike additional cognitive processes in our brain assisting the NLG will eventually make it more similar to how our cognitive processes actually work. Disclaimer: Uneducated opinion on my behalf, I'm a hobbyist only.
jdougan 4y ago
> "the discussion is an... an... epistemological one" I hear that in the voice of Agent Smith, from The Matrix.
- adlpz 4y ago
  Quite an appropriate reference when talking about neurons on an artificial intelligence :)
furyofantares 4y ago
I never know what I'm about to say, but somehow coherent sentences come out. I certainly don't know what words a sentence is going to end with when I'm thinking or saying the first words in the sentence. I just think or say the sentence from start to finish, never knowing what the next word is going to be as I'm thinking the current one, and by the end of it I've thought or said a full sentence that makes sense.
- justusthane 4y ago
  This is so weird. I am very “In my head” and have generally planned what I’m going to say before I open my mouth. It makes me feel like I’m not very good at conversation though, especially smalltalk.
  - furyofantares 4y ago
    Yeah, sometimes I think it in advance, in which case as I'm thinking it, I don't usually know the next word and still arrive at a coherent sentence by the end, just plowing forward from start to finish.
  - zeven7 4y ago
    Yeah, I'm like you but definitely know people like parent. I never really fully realized that's what they were doing though. I think I assumed they were way faster at planning their sentences than I was. Now that I know this is an option, I'm interested in giving it a try.
    - furyofantares 4y ago
      I'm actually very quiet because I do a lot of planning before I speak. The planning comes in complete sentences, one word at a time, though.
- FeepingCreature 4y ago
  I usually know what I'm about to actually say very shortly before I say it. This has occasionally led to emergency course corrections. But I do sense the "shape" of a sentence well before I say it. I think there's something like a stage design in the brain: - symbolic or model deliberation - verbal expression - vocalization And each of those stages can be consciously introspected on, but people will naturally develop more or less ability to introspect on it. I think when people say they "don't mentally verbalize", what is actually happening is they just haven't happened to develop conscious introspection of the verbal expression stage. But I'd expect that this can be trained. (Conversely, sometimes people introspect so much on verbal expression that it becomes an inherent part of the way they think. Brains are weird and wonderful!)

by SamBam 4y ago

Thorentis 4y ago

When you say "they have no idea about what they're about to say" you're talking about conscious thought. I think there is a difference between rational thought (thinking by going through a series of logically connected steps) and intuition, where you can arrive at a conclusion or knowledge of some fact or concept or knowing how to do something, without having gone through those conscious steps. Does one count as "thoughts" any less than the other? People are sometimes so quick to dismiss any subconscious thinking as being nothing more than a very complicated computer, but I couldn't disagree more.

nerdponx 4y ago
Well I think that's the point. We know that our minds engage in a large amount of pattern matching/recognition/retrieval. Perhaps this hugely-powerful pattern-matching information-retrieval engine has learned to perform similarly to human minds, being trained exclusively on the output of human minds.
gmadsen 4y ago
I tend to take the view that thoughts are very similar to sensory input. if you sit in silence for 60 seconds, you literally do not and can not predict what thoughts pop up in consciousness. You can actively focus attention on a thought, but if you try to find the source of the thought, it disapears. Thoughts just appear, just like sounds, sight, etc just appear.
jetsnoc 4y ago
Intuition is another cognitive process honed by training and reinforcement of neurons through all sorts of sensories and feedback to our brain. I think parallel models not unlike additional cognitive processes in our brain assisting the NLG will eventually make it more similar to how our cognitive processes actually work. Disclaimer: Uneducated opinion on my behalf, I'm a hobbyist only.

jdougan 4y ago

> "the discussion is an... an... epistemological one" I hear that in the voice of Agent Smith, from The Matrix.

adlpz 4y ago
Quite an appropriate reference when talking about neurons on an artificial intelligence :)

furyofantares 4y ago

I never know what I'm about to say, but somehow coherent sentences come out. I certainly don't know what words a sentence is going to end with when I'm thinking or saying the first words in the sentence. I just think or say the sentence from start to finish, never knowing what the next word is going to be as I'm thinking the current one, and by the end of it I've thought or said a full sentence that makes sense.

justusthane 4y ago
This is so weird. I am very “In my head” and have generally planned what I’m going to say before I open my mouth. It makes me feel like I’m not very good at conversation though, especially smalltalk.
- furyofantares 4y ago
  Yeah, sometimes I think it in advance, in which case as I'm thinking it, I don't usually know the next word and still arrive at a coherent sentence by the end, just plowing forward from start to finish.
- zeven7 4y ago
  Yeah, I'm like you but definitely know people like parent. I never really fully realized that's what they were doing though. I think I assumed they were way faster at planning their sentences than I was. Now that I know this is an option, I'm interested in giving it a try.
  - furyofantares 4y ago
    I'm actually very quiet because I do a lot of planning before I speak. The planning comes in complete sentences, one word at a time, though.
FeepingCreature 4y ago
I usually know what I'm about to actually say very shortly before I say it. This has occasionally led to emergency course corrections. But I do sense the "shape" of a sentence well before I say it. I think there's something like a stage design in the brain: - symbolic or model deliberation - verbal expression - vocalization And each of those stages can be consciously introspected on, but people will naturally develop more or less ability to introspect on it. I think when people say they "don't mentally verbalize", what is actually happening is they just haven't happened to develop conscious introspection of the verbal expression stage. But I'd expect that this can be trained. (Conversely, sometimes people introspect so much on verbal expression that it becomes an inherent part of the way they think. Brains are weird and wonderful!)