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You're the only person in this thread strawmanning and talking about the funds being 'stolen' which is an exaggeration and is completely false. The correct term

You're the only person in this thread strawmanning and talking about the funds being 'stolen' which is an exaggeration and is completely false. The correct term that PayPal has done is that they froze the account and it's held for 180 days. So it isn't really theft at all if PayPal still holds the funds. If the funds are completely out of PayPal's hands and not in your account, then it is stolen. In fact, should we compare to crypto sector, once you money is stolen or sent to the wrong address, there is NOBODY you can ask to get your money back, ever. This is what I mean by you trying to augment or replace the current financial system with an even worse completely libertarian and utopianist system and whatever you say on 'dystopian governments' doesn't change this fact. Even if we take your 'dystopian governments' view, when they control the crypto exchanges, there will be no way you can swap or or anyone to accept your worthless magic beans to fiat when this will be made illegal.

logicalmonster 4y ago
> You're the only person in this thread strawmanning and talking about the funds being 'stolen' which is an exaggeration and is completely false. We apparently have an irreconcilable disagreement about the nature of theft and I don't think there's any common ground to discuss this further. I sincerely hope you never get stolen from in this manner. If some mega-corporation locked up your needed funds for 180 days though, I doubt that you'd be contorting yourself trying to justify why it's not actually theft. > Even if we take your 'dystopian governments' view, when they control the crypto exchanges, there will be no way you can swap or or anyone to accept your worthless magic beans to fiat when this will be made illegal. 1) Who said anything about trading crypto for fiat? The purpose of money is to trade for goods and services. If crypto exchanges are shut down, you can still trade directly with other people. (This I think is what puts self-righteous authoritarians in a tizzy: there's no way to perfectly control other people with crypto.) 2) I'm not sure what magic beans you're referring to. Are you referring to the magic beans that are backed up by nothing and which are printed indefinitely?
- colesantiago 4y ago
  Who do you hold accountable when your crypto funds get lost? Who do you go to when your crypto funds go to the wrong address? Or more commonly, Who do you go to when your crypto funds are drained from your wallet? We both know you cannot go to anybody ever in any situation and is the reason why crypto is a failure especially as a currency, payments and for everything else. At least we know the funds are frozen and held by PayPal (which we can hold accountable) and not some shady exchange that went offline, or some random person's wallet address. So once again, you have proposed a monumentally worse system that nobody or any business wants to use or deal with in the real world, and the erratic crypto volatility wouldn't help the situation either should such a bad situation happen. > If crypto exchanges are shut down, you can still trade directly with other people. Many have tried this with crypto and this has completely failed as unrealistic at any scale. The government won't accept your crypto / magic beans as a way to pay your taxes. They won't accept it now, and they won't accept it when the crypto exchanges are shutdown.
  - logicalmonster 4y ago
    > Who do you hold accountable when your crypto funds get lost? Who do you go to when your crypto funds go to the wrong address? > Many have tried this with crypto and this has completely failed as unrealistic at any scale. 1) I know it's scary, but living with personal responsibility can be a thing that some people actually want. 2) We're extremely early into the invention of cryptocurrencies. Bitcoin is only about 14 years old. Better interfaces and best practices for how these things are handled and moved around are developing. You remind me of somebody being around in say 1978, seeing the simple computers of the day, and remarking that there's no practical use for normal people having a computer because you think that they currently suck and cannot conceive of them improving. 3) Look at human economic history. It took humans in some cases hundreds of years to figure out what we might see as best practices for new accounting concepts or technologies. Some kind of basic ledger system with tablets, sticks, or other implements proving that a tax payment or loan was made took a long time to figure out. Humans didn't know how to handle silver coins initially, it took time to figure out that hey had to put ridges on gold/silver coins to prevent certain people from clipping chunks off them. Fiat has been around a while and many humans still haven't made the connection between printing money and inflation directly robbing them. Is it any surprise that crypto isn't completely developed just 14 years in? > nobody or any business wants to use or deal with in the real world Do you not notice an inherent contradiction in what you're saying: why would you need to block exchanges if nobody wants to use it in the real world? > The government won't accept your crypto / magic beans as a way to pay your taxes. "Use fiat. Not necessarily because you think it has the best attributes for you, but because men with guns will throw you in a metal cage if you do not." Not the most persuasive argument for me, sorry.

logicalmonster 4y ago

> You're the only person in this thread strawmanning and talking about the funds being 'stolen' which is an exaggeration and is completely false. We apparently have an irreconcilable disagreement about the nature of theft and I don't think there's any common ground to discuss this further. I sincerely hope you never get stolen from in this manner. If some mega-corporation locked up your needed funds for 180 days though, I doubt that you'd be contorting yourself trying to justify why it's not actually theft. > Even if we take your 'dystopian governments' view, when they control the crypto exchanges, there will be no way you can swap or or anyone to accept your worthless magic beans to fiat when this will be made illegal. 1) Who said anything about trading crypto for fiat? The purpose of money is to trade for goods and services. If crypto exchanges are shut down, you can still trade directly with other people. (This I think is what puts self-righteous authoritarians in a tizzy: there's no way to perfectly control other people with crypto.) 2) I'm not sure what magic beans you're referring to. Are you referring to the magic beans that are backed up by nothing and which are printed indefinitely?

colesantiago 4y ago
Who do you hold accountable when your crypto funds get lost? Who do you go to when your crypto funds go to the wrong address? Or more commonly, Who do you go to when your crypto funds are drained from your wallet? We both know you cannot go to anybody ever in any situation and is the reason why crypto is a failure especially as a currency, payments and for everything else. At least we know the funds are frozen and held by PayPal (which we can hold accountable) and not some shady exchange that went offline, or some random person's wallet address. So once again, you have proposed a monumentally worse system that nobody or any business wants to use or deal with in the real world, and the erratic crypto volatility wouldn't help the situation either should such a bad situation happen. > If crypto exchanges are shut down, you can still trade directly with other people. Many have tried this with crypto and this has completely failed as unrealistic at any scale. The government won't accept your crypto / magic beans as a way to pay your taxes. They won't accept it now, and they won't accept it when the crypto exchanges are shutdown.
- logicalmonster 4y ago
  > Who do you hold accountable when your crypto funds get lost? Who do you go to when your crypto funds go to the wrong address? > Many have tried this with crypto and this has completely failed as unrealistic at any scale. 1) I know it's scary, but living with personal responsibility can be a thing that some people actually want. 2) We're extremely early into the invention of cryptocurrencies. Bitcoin is only about 14 years old. Better interfaces and best practices for how these things are handled and moved around are developing. You remind me of somebody being around in say 1978, seeing the simple computers of the day, and remarking that there's no practical use for normal people having a computer because you think that they currently suck and cannot conceive of them improving. 3) Look at human economic history. It took humans in some cases hundreds of years to figure out what we might see as best practices for new accounting concepts or technologies. Some kind of basic ledger system with tablets, sticks, or other implements proving that a tax payment or loan was made took a long time to figure out. Humans didn't know how to handle silver coins initially, it took time to figure out that hey had to put ridges on gold/silver coins to prevent certain people from clipping chunks off them. Fiat has been around a while and many humans still haven't made the connection between printing money and inflation directly robbing them. Is it any surprise that crypto isn't completely developed just 14 years in? > nobody or any business wants to use or deal with in the real world Do you not notice an inherent contradiction in what you're saying: why would you need to block exchanges if nobody wants to use it in the real world? > The government won't accept your crypto / magic beans as a way to pay your taxes. "Use fiat. Not necessarily because you think it has the best attributes for you, but because men with guns will throw you in a metal cage if you do not." Not the most persuasive argument for me, sorry.