5 ms·

The argument of efficiency is stupid. Of course I can do a better job distributing hot dogs than the hot dog guy if I just put out a massive table of hot dogs

The argument of efficiency is stupid. Of course I can do a better job distributing hot dogs than the hot dog guy if I just put out a massive table of hot dogs I got for free and let people run up and grab one without paying for it. But that model doesn't work if I have to pay for my hot dogs. If you invest millions of dollars in movies or a music album, you have to charge money to make it back. As we can see from Spotify and others, ad supported models do not pay enough to cover the high costs of creating expensive products. But of course alternative revenue is enough to pay for the costs of selling something that doesn't belong to you and costs nothing for you to distribute. And once you have to charge, of course people will prefer to get it where they don't have to pay. It has little to do with convenience. The number one thing that will impact the conversion rate on a shopping cart funnel (besides SSN) is asking for a credit card, regardless of how few seconds it takes to fill it out. People are wary of putting their card in online, they're lazy, and they're cheap. You're not more efficient, you're just catering to the lowest common denominator of people. There is virtually no reason why companies could not distribute products the way TPB does, except that they'd still have to charge money for those products. The minute you do that, someone who gives away hot dogs they didn't pay for wins. To pretend like it's some noble effort is a joke. You earn your livings off the backs of people who make things people want. Try charging your users for the things you offer and see how long your "more efficient" platform does well. Sure, people will go on and on about how they get higher quality files, whole discographies in one click, and blah blah blah. Most people do not do that and they still pirate things. Taking things you didn't pay for and selling them cheaper than someone who did is not more efficient. Just start calling a spade a spade so we can move on and talk like adults.

pyre 15y ago
> It has little to do with convenience. This is discounting how much it has to do with convenience. People love Netflix's streaming service, but it's plagued by the fact that the studios are reluctant to give them access to a wider catalog (as I understand it, not a Netflix subscriber). There are tons of examples where the MPAA/RIAA members could have switched distribution methods, but chose not to for a very long time because they are too conservative. Once they shuttered Napster, they could have paid a team to develop something similar to the iTunes music store, and organized a set of standards to govern music players with electronics companies. They could have owned the new distribution medium by ushering it in themselves. Instead they spent time on legal teams playing wack-a-mole with the pirates and lobbying various legislative bodies across the globe to try and prevent the Internet from happening. The only investment that they want to make in the future is attempting to extend the ecosystem of the past into the future as far as possible.
- earbitscom 15y ago
  As I understand it (and happy to be educated otherwise), the major record labels can not build an iTunes competitor together, as it would require discussions that lead to price fixing, etc. There is a good interview with the head of digital for Warner Bros Music on This Week in Music that talks about how they can only hope the other labels negotiate with people like Spotify because they have to make forward progress, but they can't know for sure and coordinate efforts to move the industry forward, because it's actually illegal to have most of those discussions with each other. Again, I don't know if that's true, but it could be.
  - chc 15y ago
    I can't speak to the legal issues, but I do know the TV guys tried it with Hulu and got scared of it competing with their core business when it started to become successful. So I kind of doubt it's concern over antitrust suits at work here.
  - mgkimsal 15y ago
    But somehow the fact that all major labels ended up with CDs at $13.99 retail for several years was mere coincidence.
    - earbitscom 15y ago
      Oh yeah, there can be no other way that that happens. Must've been greedy old guys in a room rubbing their hands together, plotting. Most cars in the same class and relative features cost the same. Most comparable computers cost similar amounts. Costume jewelry from store to store is similarly priced. Not everything is a conspiracy. You price things at what people will pay for them, and for many years people gladly paid, and still pay, $13.99 for CDs. You don't have to conspire to come to a similar price point.
      - mgkimsal 15y ago
        Of course, but... I worked in a music store for a number of years, and got gossipy stories from area and regional managers about stuff from label reps and contacts. There were a few more majors back then, but it always felt very much like collusion more than competition - coordinating of release dates, for one. We couldn't adjust our prices to match competition without clearing it first with HQ. Some of these were, to some extent, normal retail chain corporate policies, but why were they so worried about some issues? Well, if we violated things, we might lose some deals we had with label X or label Y. (Almost felt like if mfg X preloaded linux on model ABC, they wouldn't get preferential MS Windows licensing prices compared to their competitors.) This was early 90s, for some perspective. Then - lo and behold - http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2000/08/38103?currentPage=all http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2000/08/38103?current... - a mere 9 years later. Then 11 years after that - http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/jan/11/major-labels-lawsuit http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/jan/11/major-labels-law...
seanp2k2 15y ago
Your argument would make a lot of sense if all the movie stars, directors, producers, composers, etc were as poor as the rest of America.
- earbitscom 15y ago
  Do you know how many actors, directors producers and composers there are that are as poor or poorer than most Americans? The people you watch on TMZ are an anomaly. Most creatives struggle as much as the next guy.
  - seanp2k2 15y ago
    Yes, and I don't see many of them supporting destructive legislation.
    - earbitscom 15y ago
      I wasn't talking about the legislation. I simply said TPB's only greater efficiency is that they don't have to charge for their product, because they come about it dishonestly. And I know plenty of creatives who support this opinion.
- andrewcamel 15y ago
  As correct as earbitscom is in his response to this comment, there is another issue. Some of these people are being compensated so well because they are able to play a part in the making of a movie, which millions of people want to watch and will pay money to do so. They are being paid for their abilities and the more specifically, rarity of those abilities.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
andrewcamel 15y ago
Yes! Thank you for laying out your opinion so intelligently and with such a perfect metaphor. It is really time for everyone to just grow up and as you so eloquently put it, "just start calling a spade a spade".
samlev 15y ago
Let's take this metaphor a little further, then. Digital content isn't exactly like a hot dog, so let's assume that you could design a magical hot dog which, once created, you can copy many times with no other costs. You have an unlimited supply of hot dogs, and each one of these hot dogs, being an exact copy of the original, can also be used to magically make more hot dogs. Now I'm not saying that this hot dog is free - it cost a LOT in R&D to produce this hot dog, and you invested a lot in it. The other thing is that hot dogs go with buns, and there's sadly no magical buns in this universe. Each and every bun has to be created, and costs money. So you set up your hot dog stand, selling magical hot dogs with non-magical buns. You charge a premium rate because you're the only guy in town who managed to make a magical hot dog of this quality, and with it's unique flavour. Besides, the buns are still costing you money, and they have to come from somewhere. Now you notice some guy has found out that the magical hot dog you sold him can make new hot dogs at no cost, but they don't have the buns attached. As a response, you start baking the hot dogs into the bread - it makes it harder to get the hot dog out, and you think that that's the end of it. But the guy realises that with a bit of effort, he can get the hot dog out of the bread too, because what's the point of a hot dog if you can't get at it? Baking the hot dog into the bread is costing you even more, and making it harder for people to get to the hot dog. Soon you have some people coming up to you and asking if they can have seeded bread, or maybe gluten free, or maybe they just hate bread and want it on it's own. Some of them want to buy just your hot dog and put it on their own bread. But if you start selling them hot dogs by themselves, won't they just start handing out free hot dogs to all their friends? That would be a disaster! So your answer is no! Hot dogs come baked into bread, and by now you've convinced the mayor to make it illegal to take your hot dogs out of the bread. People should just learn to love your bread! So how's the guy who took your hot dog out of it's bread going? He's still giving away hot dogs for free, and what's worse is that he's telling everyone he gives one to to give them away, too. It's costing him nothing to do because he doesn't have to pay for bread. Sure, some people are still coming to you because they actually like the bread, but mostly the people coming to you are asking about bread-free options, and are still willing to pay. Most of the people going to the guy who's giving out hot dogs for free never bought anything from you, and some of them don't even eat the hot dogs. Sure, you see a few of your old customers going to him instead, but mostly the people going to him either never came to you, or (after tasting the free hot dog) later come to you to buy a genuine one in bread. The point isn't that the guy giving away free hot dogs isn't a jerk. He is. The point is that you're stubbornly refusing to let people pay for a hot dog how they want it, in a way that costs you less (because you don't have to adjust the price for the bread - you just have to cover your costs, rather than incurring new ones). You're doing this in an attempt to stop people doing what they're already doing. People don't want to rip you off - they just want to be able to pick their own bread. To break from the analogy now, I was happily a pirate because it was difficult for me to get what I wanted how I wanted and there was no technical reason why it wasn't available. Sure, if I wanted all my movies as flip-books, then there's a technical reason why that doesn't make sense, but there's no technical reason stopping me from getting them as digital media files. If I'm looking for music from a band, I will always try to find a legal channel to obtain it first. If I can't find one (and these days, it's getting pretty rare), then I'll probably pirate it. Sure, some people will pirate it anyway because they feel entitled to it, but the point is that many, many people have no problems paying for content so long as they can get it how and when they want it. This type of availability of content is pretty much what TPB seems to be about for many people. It's not about screwing content producers - it's about freedom of choice. Anyway, that's my take on it. I know that there are people who will always choose to steal rather than pay, but most of society would happily pay if only we were allowed to.
stephen_g 15y ago
"Of course I can do a better job distributing hot dogs than the hot dog guy if I just put out a massive table of hot dogs I got for free and let people run up and grab one without paying for it. But that model doesn't work if I have to pay for my hot dogs." I'm not arguing for the Pirate Bay, but there is an error in your logic - to make that analogy fit into an online distribution situation, you would have to postulate that you only have to pay for one hotdog, and the rest can be duplicated and distributed for close to zero cost.
- visarg 15y ago
  Republicans pretend to be the defenders of Christian values, so they should take notice that Christ was the first "pirate". He took five loaves and two fish (paid for or earned by work) and MULTIPLIED them to feed 5000. And this was his first miracle. So Jesus is the proto TPB founder! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeding_the_multitude http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeding_the_multitude

pyre 15y ago

> It has little to do with convenience. This is discounting how much it has to do with convenience. People love Netflix's streaming service, but it's plagued by the fact that the studios are reluctant to give them access to a wider catalog (as I understand it, not a Netflix subscriber). There are tons of examples where the MPAA/RIAA members could have switched distribution methods, but chose not to for a very long time because they are too conservative. Once they shuttered Napster, they could have paid a team to develop something similar to the iTunes music store, and organized a set of standards to govern music players with electronics companies. They could have owned the new distribution medium by ushering it in themselves. Instead they spent time on legal teams playing wack-a-mole with the pirates and lobbying various legislative bodies across the globe to try and prevent the Internet from happening. The only investment that they want to make in the future is attempting to extend the ecosystem of the past into the future as far as possible.

earbitscom 15y ago
As I understand it (and happy to be educated otherwise), the major record labels can not build an iTunes competitor together, as it would require discussions that lead to price fixing, etc. There is a good interview with the head of digital for Warner Bros Music on This Week in Music that talks about how they can only hope the other labels negotiate with people like Spotify because they have to make forward progress, but they can't know for sure and coordinate efforts to move the industry forward, because it's actually illegal to have most of those discussions with each other. Again, I don't know if that's true, but it could be.
- chc 15y ago
  I can't speak to the legal issues, but I do know the TV guys tried it with Hulu and got scared of it competing with their core business when it started to become successful. So I kind of doubt it's concern over antitrust suits at work here.
- mgkimsal 15y ago
  But somehow the fact that all major labels ended up with CDs at $13.99 retail for several years was mere coincidence.
  - earbitscom 15y ago
    Oh yeah, there can be no other way that that happens. Must've been greedy old guys in a room rubbing their hands together, plotting. Most cars in the same class and relative features cost the same. Most comparable computers cost similar amounts. Costume jewelry from store to store is similarly priced. Not everything is a conspiracy. You price things at what people will pay for them, and for many years people gladly paid, and still pay, $13.99 for CDs. You don't have to conspire to come to a similar price point.
    - mgkimsal 15y ago
      Of course, but... I worked in a music store for a number of years, and got gossipy stories from area and regional managers about stuff from label reps and contacts. There were a few more majors back then, but it always felt very much like collusion more than competition - coordinating of release dates, for one. We couldn't adjust our prices to match competition without clearing it first with HQ. Some of these were, to some extent, normal retail chain corporate policies, but why were they so worried about some issues? Well, if we violated things, we might lose some deals we had with label X or label Y. (Almost felt like if mfg X preloaded linux on model ABC, they wouldn't get preferential MS Windows licensing prices compared to their competitors.) This was early 90s, for some perspective. Then - lo and behold - http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2000/08/38103?currentPage=all http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2000/08/38103?current... - a mere 9 years later. Then 11 years after that - http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/jan/11/major-labels-lawsuit http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/jan/11/major-labels-law...

seanp2k2 15y ago

Your argument would make a lot of sense if all the movie stars, directors, producers, composers, etc were as poor as the rest of America.

earbitscom 15y ago
Do you know how many actors, directors producers and composers there are that are as poor or poorer than most Americans? The people you watch on TMZ are an anomaly. Most creatives struggle as much as the next guy.
- seanp2k2 15y ago
  Yes, and I don't see many of them supporting destructive legislation.
  - earbitscom 15y ago
    I wasn't talking about the legislation. I simply said TPB's only greater efficiency is that they don't have to charge for their product, because they come about it dishonestly. And I know plenty of creatives who support this opinion.
andrewcamel 15y ago
As correct as earbitscom is in his response to this comment, there is another issue. Some of these people are being compensated so well because they are able to play a part in the making of a movie, which millions of people want to watch and will pay money to do so. They are being paid for their abilities and the more specifically, rarity of those abilities.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

andrewcamel 15y ago

Yes! Thank you for laying out your opinion so intelligently and with such a perfect metaphor. It is really time for everyone to just grow up and as you so eloquently put it, "just start calling a spade a spade".

samlev 15y ago

Let's take this metaphor a little further, then. Digital content isn't exactly like a hot dog, so let's assume that you could design a magical hot dog which, once created, you can copy many times with no other costs. You have an unlimited supply of hot dogs, and each one of these hot dogs, being an exact copy of the original, can also be used to magically make more hot dogs. Now I'm not saying that this hot dog is free - it cost a LOT in R&D to produce this hot dog, and you invested a lot in it. The other thing is that hot dogs go with buns, and there's sadly no magical buns in this universe. Each and every bun has to be created, and costs money. So you set up your hot dog stand, selling magical hot dogs with non-magical buns. You charge a premium rate because you're the only guy in town who managed to make a magical hot dog of this quality, and with it's unique flavour. Besides, the buns are still costing you money, and they have to come from somewhere. Now you notice some guy has found out that the magical hot dog you sold him can make new hot dogs at no cost, but they don't have the buns attached. As a response, you start baking the hot dogs into the bread - it makes it harder to get the hot dog out, and you think that that's the end of it. But the guy realises that with a bit of effort, he can get the hot dog out of the bread too, because what's the point of a hot dog if you can't get at it? Baking the hot dog into the bread is costing you even more, and making it harder for people to get to the hot dog. Soon you have some people coming up to you and asking if they can have seeded bread, or maybe gluten free, or maybe they just hate bread and want it on it's own. Some of them want to buy just your hot dog and put it on their own bread. But if you start selling them hot dogs by themselves, won't they just start handing out free hot dogs to all their friends? That would be a disaster! So your answer is no! Hot dogs come baked into bread, and by now you've convinced the mayor to make it illegal to take your hot dogs out of the bread. People should just learn to love your bread! So how's the guy who took your hot dog out of it's bread going? He's still giving away hot dogs for free, and what's worse is that he's telling everyone he gives one to to give them away, too. It's costing him nothing to do because he doesn't have to pay for bread. Sure, some people are still coming to you because they actually like the bread, but mostly the people coming to you are asking about bread-free options, and are still willing to pay. Most of the people going to the guy who's giving out hot dogs for free never bought anything from you, and some of them don't even eat the hot dogs. Sure, you see a few of your old customers going to him instead, but mostly the people going to him either never came to you, or (after tasting the free hot dog) later come to you to buy a genuine one in bread. The point isn't that the guy giving away free hot dogs isn't a jerk. He is. The point is that you're stubbornly refusing to let people pay for a hot dog how they want it, in a way that costs you less (because you don't have to adjust the price for the bread - you just have to cover your costs, rather than incurring new ones). You're doing this in an attempt to stop people doing what they're already doing. People don't want to rip you off - they just want to be able to pick their own bread. To break from the analogy now, I was happily a pirate because it was difficult for me to get what I wanted how I wanted and there was no technical reason why it wasn't available. Sure, if I wanted all my movies as flip-books, then there's a technical reason why that doesn't make sense, but there's no technical reason stopping me from getting them as digital media files. If I'm looking for music from a band, I will always try to find a legal channel to obtain it first. If I can't find one (and these days, it's getting pretty rare), then I'll probably pirate it. Sure, some people will pirate it anyway because they feel entitled to it, but the point is that many, many people have no problems paying for content so long as they can get it how and when they want it. This type of availability of content is pretty much what TPB seems to be about for many people. It's not about screwing content producers - it's about freedom of choice. Anyway, that's my take on it. I know that there are people who will always choose to steal rather than pay, but most of society would happily pay if only we were allowed to.

stephen_g 15y ago

"Of course I can do a better job distributing hot dogs than the hot dog guy if I just put out a massive table of hot dogs I got for free and let people run up and grab one without paying for it. But that model doesn't work if I have to pay for my hot dogs." I'm not arguing for the Pirate Bay, but there is an error in your logic - to make that analogy fit into an online distribution situation, you would have to postulate that you only have to pay for one hotdog, and the rest can be duplicated and distributed for close to zero cost.

visarg 15y ago
Republicans pretend to be the defenders of Christian values, so they should take notice that Christ was the first "pirate". He took five loaves and two fish (paid for or earned by work) and MULTIPLIED them to feed 5000. And this was his first miracle. So Jesus is the proto TPB founder! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeding_the_multitude http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeding_the_multitude