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The data doesn't really back this claim up. There are parts of the country where drug use is very high, and yet they don't have as many homeless people per capi

The data doesn't really back this claim up. There are parts of the country where drug use is very high, and yet they don't have as many homeless people per capita as SF. There is a very clear correlation between homelessness and house prices, and not a clear correlation between drug use and house prices. Additionally, the mere fact of being homeless often results in increases in mental illness symptoms and drug use, so trying to get people to not be drug addicts while not giving them a home means you aren't taking away what is often one of the biggest causes of their drug use. https://www.sightline.org/2022/03/16/homelessness-is-a-housing-problem/ https://www.sightline.org/2022/03/16/homelessness-is-a-housi... https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/jun/03/its-a-miracle-helsinkis-radical-solution-to-homelessness https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/jun/03/its-a-miracle...

ryanSrich 4y ago
> There are parts of the country where drug use is very high, and yet they don't have as many homeless people per capita as SF. That’s because drugs are still illegal in those areas. California and Oregon have essentially legalized every drug. If you’re caught on the street smoking meth or fentanyl, it’s more than likely that a police officer walks right past you.
- swearwolf 4y ago
  People are downvoting this, but it’s true. There’s a little more nuance here as well. In addition to fully tolerated public drug possession and consumption, there is also the tolerance of street camping, and the extremely low prices of meth and fentanyl on the West Coast at play here. However a person enters the drug addiction spiral, once they’re in it, it’s easier by far to stay in active addiction here. In Oregon, where I live, people can either scrounge enough cans to take to the recycling center - about 20 will do - or use their EBT card to buy bottles of water, empty them and then recycle the bottles to get the cash deposit. Either way, less than $10 will buy enough meth to stay high for days here. I assume it’s similar for fentanyl. No one will stop you from setting up your tent or RV on street, and at least in Portland you can steal bikes or cars to earn extra money. There’s a chop shop within sight of my house doing exactly that, all day every day out in the open. You can get enough food from the many homeless services organizations and tents are given out by the city. Essentially everything a person needs to completely destroy themselves with drugs is available for free or nearly free, and law enforcement stopped bothering to try to keep things under control. These conditions are fairly unique to Oregon, Washington and California, so I think the high housing price correlation is true, but also incomplete.
  - Apocryphon 4y ago
    The West Coast has temperate weather which makes them a desirable destination for the houseless, as well as other jurisdictions to send their populations over. You don’t see that level of homelessness in fairly liberal drug policy states of Illinois or New York, and I’m sure there are even more examples. Also, the previous rebuttal makes no sense. If an area has a high amount of drug use, what does it matter whether if the law there are legal or illegal, with respect to how that affects homelessness? Was the GP claiming only the well-to-do housed are using drugs there?
  - lostdog 4y ago
    Why is the drug overdose rate so much lower on the West Coast than the East? It sure looks like drug usage is at least as bad in other states, so it doesn't really make sense that the unique West Coast housing issues are due to drugs alone.
    - ryanSrich 4y ago
      At least where I live (Portland) it's the availability of narcan. Ask any first responder. They show up, administer narcan, and before they can even get the person's name the person is gone.
    - comte7092 4y ago
      People are at an elevated risk of overdose after getting out of prison, they are forced to stop cold turkey and when they get out they don’t have the same tolerance as they used to so they end up misjudging the dose. The west coast is more lenient on drug use, im guessing that leads to fewer overdoses as a result.
  - comte7092 4y ago
    People downvote it because the base premise is not true. The claim isn’t “there aren’t large drug problems I. California/Oregon” which is what you are correctly stating is true, the claim is “drug problems are not the primary driver of homelessness, housing costs are”. Saying “California and Oregon have effectively legalized drugs so that’s why there is homelessness” just isn’t an accurate statement. As noted in other parts of the thread, people who use drugs will happily rent a place of it is cheap. Now is it a contributing factor? Probably a minor one, yes. But the primary driver of the size of the homeless population is housing costs, and for the unsheltered population it’s definitely weather. New York actually has a very sizeable homeless population, the difference with California is that people are much more likely to be living in shelters there.
- comte7092 4y ago
  It really sounds like there’s no evidence that will shift you off of your set opinions on this tbh.
jboy55 4y ago
Being marginally employed at a restaurant, supporting a drug habit, can get you an apartment in many locales. Being gainfully employed at multiple restaurants means you still can't afford housing within a 70mi radius of SF.
sokoloff 4y ago
I’d expect places with generally pleasant weather to attract more interest than places without. It wouldn’t surprise me if that drove both higher home prices and more homelessness. (I don’t live in CA, but I have somewhat frequently sat on an airplane de-icing pad waiting to travel to CA.)

ryanSrich 4y ago

> There are parts of the country where drug use is very high, and yet they don't have as many homeless people per capita as SF. That’s because drugs are still illegal in those areas. California and Oregon have essentially legalized every drug. If you’re caught on the street smoking meth or fentanyl, it’s more than likely that a police officer walks right past you.

swearwolf 4y ago
People are downvoting this, but it’s true. There’s a little more nuance here as well. In addition to fully tolerated public drug possession and consumption, there is also the tolerance of street camping, and the extremely low prices of meth and fentanyl on the West Coast at play here. However a person enters the drug addiction spiral, once they’re in it, it’s easier by far to stay in active addiction here. In Oregon, where I live, people can either scrounge enough cans to take to the recycling center - about 20 will do - or use their EBT card to buy bottles of water, empty them and then recycle the bottles to get the cash deposit. Either way, less than $10 will buy enough meth to stay high for days here. I assume it’s similar for fentanyl. No one will stop you from setting up your tent or RV on street, and at least in Portland you can steal bikes or cars to earn extra money. There’s a chop shop within sight of my house doing exactly that, all day every day out in the open. You can get enough food from the many homeless services organizations and tents are given out by the city. Essentially everything a person needs to completely destroy themselves with drugs is available for free or nearly free, and law enforcement stopped bothering to try to keep things under control. These conditions are fairly unique to Oregon, Washington and California, so I think the high housing price correlation is true, but also incomplete.
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  The West Coast has temperate weather which makes them a desirable destination for the houseless, as well as other jurisdictions to send their populations over. You don’t see that level of homelessness in fairly liberal drug policy states of Illinois or New York, and I’m sure there are even more examples. Also, the previous rebuttal makes no sense. If an area has a high amount of drug use, what does it matter whether if the law there are legal or illegal, with respect to how that affects homelessness? Was the GP claiming only the well-to-do housed are using drugs there?
- lostdog 4y ago
  Why is the drug overdose rate so much lower on the West Coast than the East? It sure looks like drug usage is at least as bad in other states, so it doesn't really make sense that the unique West Coast housing issues are due to drugs alone.
  - ryanSrich 4y ago
    At least where I live (Portland) it's the availability of narcan. Ask any first responder. They show up, administer narcan, and before they can even get the person's name the person is gone.
  - comte7092 4y ago
    People are at an elevated risk of overdose after getting out of prison, they are forced to stop cold turkey and when they get out they don’t have the same tolerance as they used to so they end up misjudging the dose. The west coast is more lenient on drug use, im guessing that leads to fewer overdoses as a result.
- comte7092 4y ago
  People downvote it because the base premise is not true. The claim isn’t “there aren’t large drug problems I. California/Oregon” which is what you are correctly stating is true, the claim is “drug problems are not the primary driver of homelessness, housing costs are”. Saying “California and Oregon have effectively legalized drugs so that’s why there is homelessness” just isn’t an accurate statement. As noted in other parts of the thread, people who use drugs will happily rent a place of it is cheap. Now is it a contributing factor? Probably a minor one, yes. But the primary driver of the size of the homeless population is housing costs, and for the unsheltered population it’s definitely weather. New York actually has a very sizeable homeless population, the difference with California is that people are much more likely to be living in shelters there.
comte7092 4y ago
It really sounds like there’s no evidence that will shift you off of your set opinions on this tbh.

jboy55 4y ago

Being marginally employed at a restaurant, supporting a drug habit, can get you an apartment in many locales. Being gainfully employed at multiple restaurants means you still can't afford housing within a 70mi radius of SF.

sokoloff 4y ago

I’d expect places with generally pleasant weather to attract more interest than places without. It wouldn’t surprise me if that drove both higher home prices and more homelessness. (I don’t live in CA, but I have somewhat frequently sat on an airplane de-icing pad waiting to travel to CA.)