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For some clarity, see https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/02/microsoft-officially-blesses-parallels-as-a-way-to-run-windows-on-m1-m2-macs/ https://arstechnica.

For some clarity, see https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/02/microsoft-officially-blesses-parallels-as-a-way-to-run-windows-on-m1-m2-macs/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/02/microsoft-officially... > These licensing problems haven't technically stopped people from running the Arm version of Windows on other hardware, including Apple Silicon Macs > Microsoft is formally blessing Parallels as a way to run the Professional and Enterprise versions of Windows 11 on Apple Silicon Macs Original source: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-using-windows-11-with-mac-computers-with-apple-m1-and-m2-chips-cd15fd62-9b34-4b78-b0bc-121baa3c568c https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-usin... > Parallels® Desktop version 18 is an authorized solution In other words, you could (unofficially) do this before, but now it's allowed according to the terms of your license.

jasoneckert 4y ago
> Original source: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-usin https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-usin... It looks like Parallels has the same restrictions that you'd get from running Win11 ARM inside the UTM hypervisor on M1/M2 Macs (like I currently do): No WSL/WSA and no virtualization based security or sandboxes.
- singularity2001 4y ago
  Why would you need WSL/WSA when Mac is already a *NIX?
  - DaiPlusPlus 4y ago
    Yes, macOS is a BSD - UNIX Certification and POSIX compliance is nice, but macOS does not behave the same way as Linux, which famously is not a Unix (it's even in the name), and POSIX compliance doesn't mean much today: even Windows 2000 and Windows Server 2003 were POSIX compliant with SFU. From what I gather from people with far more experience than me: if you need a "Linux-compliant" environment you're better-off with WSL2 than macOS.
    - rufugee 4y ago
      I'd argue you're better off with macOS + something like Parallels or, if you just need ubuntu, multipass. Introducing Windows to get a Linux-compliant environment is reaching around your back to scratch your elbow.
      - linsomniac 4y ago
        My use case for WSL is slightly different: I work with developers who run Windows and I'd like to be able to figure out workflows that will work on their systems. A coworker today was having issues with running a Docker container that apparently had something to do with how Docker was interacting with WSL, but I couldn't reproduce on my Linux or Mac systems.
      - Aaron2222 4y ago
        Lima[0] is also great if you just need command-line Linux. [0]: https://github.com/lima-vm/lima https://github.com/lima-vm/lima
    - raverbashing 4y ago
      > if you need a "Linux-compliant" environment I'd willing to bet some pocket money that most people claiming that don't know what they're talking about Unless you need, I dunno, DBUS? Or are specifically building stuff for Ubuntu/Red hat etc
      - trissylegs 4y ago
        I had a lot of trouble getting any FPGA software running on Mac. But Linux it just runs/builds out of the box. Although if you have windows it also tends to run there too.
        raverbashing 4y ago
        Ah true, some SW is built for specific Linux distros (on one side, it's hard to build an "universal binary" but on the other side, I've seen very ugly software installs)
  - bragr 4y ago
    My mac using coworkers constantly complain that the *NIX parts of Mac are ancient and out of date and already use a linux VMs on top of Mac for better bash or whatever.
    - atonse 4y ago
      Which parts in particular? I’ve seen literally hundreds of developers use macOS (including myself) for over a decade either at work/ conferences/meetups and never seen them use a Linux VM apart from something like docker, etc.
    - selectodude 4y ago
      brew install bash has always worked for me.
      - philistine 4y ago
        what's wrong with zsh?
        mr_toad 4y ago
        It’s fine unless you need to run a bash script.
    - fragmede 4y ago
      But then you have to deal with a VM on top of the host macOS. IMO it's way easier to install brew, install an up to date copy of bash (which is more recent than Ubuntu has), and coreutils, and just use macOS. Having to do gls occasionally (for GNU ls) is minorly annoying, but way less work than a whole freaking VM. https://formulae.brew.sh/formula/bash https://formulae.brew.sh/formula/bash shows version 5.2.15. https://packages.ubuntu.com/kinetic/bash https://packages.ubuntu.com/kinetic/bash (well http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/main/b/bash/bash_5.2-1ubuntu2/changelog http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/main/b/bash/bas...) shows 5.2.1+debian/ubuntu patches.
    - jjtheblunt 4y ago
      They might be bumping into old versions of utilities up to just before GPLv3. From GPLv3 onwards, Apple has had to leave installation of newer versions of tools to users, legally, our publish their own proprietary IP, Stallman’s objective some would say.
  - birdyrooster 4y ago
    Furthermore WSL cannot even compile anything
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - kiwijamo 4y ago
      AFAIK gcc et al works just fine in WSL.
      - riolu 4y ago
        I used WSL2 on Windows 10 to compile the WSL2 kernel with additional flags supporting wireguard. So I'm pretty sure compiling works, maybe it was an issue with WSL1?
        birdyrooster 4y ago
        I concede technically yes it can compile some things but there is such a large catalog of software which fails to compile in WSL2 it’s frustrating. A great example is the many Python modules with c extensions.
  - Illotus 4y ago
    Docker has much better IO perf with lot of small files on WSL vs Mac. Currently doing Rails development and had to revert to running local straight up on Mac vs Docker because on Docker it was extremely slow. This of course means more testing on prod like cloud envs so it is really a load of crap.
    - duffyjp 4y ago
      I've experienced this with IO performance for huge files too. A while back I setup a caching service on a spare older Mac Mini first with Docker for macOS and when it couldn't keep up I installed Windows and it was slightly better but still crap. I threw Ubuntu on it and I was saturating the gigabit connection without breaking a sweat. I'm also a Rails dev and I do all my dev work on an M1 mac and don't even have Docker installed, though I've heard it has improved a lot recently.
- gjsman-1000 4y ago
  It's not perfect, but if you buy Parallels, it does have automated ARM-based setup of Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, and Kali. Which makes more sense anyway - then you are running 2 VMs on your host, instead of a VM and a VM inside a VM (because WSL2 is just a lightweight VM).
  - giancarlostoro 4y ago
    > (because WSL2 is just a lightweight VM). It does use Hyper-V if I remember correctly.
  - moondev 4y ago
    To date, nested virt on m1/m2 is not possible which is a huge bummer. You should be able to run WSL1 inside an aarch64 windows vm however.
- aseipp 4y ago
  Does Hyper-V not support nested virtualization? Or maybe macOS doesn't support it. Because M2 chips absolutely have FEAT_NV2 so nested virt should work well; only ARM system around with it. One more win for Asahi Linux, I guess.
  - viraptor 4y ago
    Yeah, I was just looking for that one. It seems to be somehow supported in Linux (https://lwn.net/Articles/919851/ https://lwn.net/Articles/919851/) and Hyper-V does do nested virtualisation (https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/virtualization/hyper-v-on-windows/user-guide/nested-virtualization https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/virtualization/hyper-v-on-...) so... Either a delayed feature or yet another silly licensing thing.
    - appleperfect 4y ago
      [flagged]
  - zamadatix 4y ago
    At the moment the missing component is nested virtualization support in the macOS Virtualization Framework. Once added there would probably need to be some minor changes in Parallels to take use of it as well.
  - xen2xen1 4y ago
    You can do nested virtualization under VMware and Windows 11 / Hyperv, but there are lots of caveats and requirements. So yes.
- theodric 4y ago
  Ok but why on Earth would you run WSL in Windows on macOS when you could just run Linux on macOS or (gasp) use the UNIX layer in macOS for your hackery? Does WSL have some special sauce I'm missing out on? I never found it more compelling than more mature solutions like Cygwin, docker, or a regular VM.
  - nailuj 4y ago
    Have you used the later versions of WSL (WSL 2 under Windows 11)? You have seamless bidirectional file system access, GUI applications that mesh with the rest of the desktop, can use Windows Terminal and have other tabs with PowerShell open, no network setup or fiddling required. It's impressively convenient.
    - shaunsingh 4y ago
      Right, but that's still one layer of abstraction above a native unix system, which macOS is.
dev_tty01 4y ago
I've had a licensed copy of Win11 Arm running in Parallels for months. I just installed the dev version as mentioned in the AT article. At first it wouldn't let me buy a license, but at some point a few months ago it allowed me to buy a license and that has been fine ever since. Runs great. Good that the support has become official now.

jasoneckert 4y ago

> Original source: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-usin https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-usin... It looks like Parallels has the same restrictions that you'd get from running Win11 ARM inside the UTM hypervisor on M1/M2 Macs (like I currently do): No WSL/WSA and no virtualization based security or sandboxes.

singularity2001 4y ago
Why would you need WSL/WSA when Mac is already a *NIX?
- DaiPlusPlus 4y ago
  Yes, macOS is a BSD - UNIX Certification and POSIX compliance is nice, but macOS does not behave the same way as Linux, which famously is not a Unix (it's even in the name), and POSIX compliance doesn't mean much today: even Windows 2000 and Windows Server 2003 were POSIX compliant with SFU. From what I gather from people with far more experience than me: if you need a "Linux-compliant" environment you're better-off with WSL2 than macOS.
  - rufugee 4y ago
    I'd argue you're better off with macOS + something like Parallels or, if you just need ubuntu, multipass. Introducing Windows to get a Linux-compliant environment is reaching around your back to scratch your elbow.
    - linsomniac 4y ago
      My use case for WSL is slightly different: I work with developers who run Windows and I'd like to be able to figure out workflows that will work on their systems. A coworker today was having issues with running a Docker container that apparently had something to do with how Docker was interacting with WSL, but I couldn't reproduce on my Linux or Mac systems.
    - Aaron2222 4y ago
      Lima[0] is also great if you just need command-line Linux. [0]: https://github.com/lima-vm/lima https://github.com/lima-vm/lima
  - raverbashing 4y ago
    > if you need a "Linux-compliant" environment I'd willing to bet some pocket money that most people claiming that don't know what they're talking about Unless you need, I dunno, DBUS? Or are specifically building stuff for Ubuntu/Red hat etc
    - trissylegs 4y ago
      I had a lot of trouble getting any FPGA software running on Mac. But Linux it just runs/builds out of the box. Although if you have windows it also tends to run there too.
      - raverbashing 4y ago
        Ah true, some SW is built for specific Linux distros (on one side, it's hard to build an "universal binary" but on the other side, I've seen very ugly software installs)
- bragr 4y ago
  My mac using coworkers constantly complain that the *NIX parts of Mac are ancient and out of date and already use a linux VMs on top of Mac for better bash or whatever.
  - atonse 4y ago
    Which parts in particular? I’ve seen literally hundreds of developers use macOS (including myself) for over a decade either at work/ conferences/meetups and never seen them use a Linux VM apart from something like docker, etc.
  - selectodude 4y ago
    brew install bash has always worked for me.
    - philistine 4y ago
      what's wrong with zsh?
      - mr_toad 4y ago
        It’s fine unless you need to run a bash script.
  - fragmede 4y ago
    But then you have to deal with a VM on top of the host macOS. IMO it's way easier to install brew, install an up to date copy of bash (which is more recent than Ubuntu has), and coreutils, and just use macOS. Having to do gls occasionally (for GNU ls) is minorly annoying, but way less work than a whole freaking VM. https://formulae.brew.sh/formula/bash https://formulae.brew.sh/formula/bash shows version 5.2.15. https://packages.ubuntu.com/kinetic/bash https://packages.ubuntu.com/kinetic/bash (well http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/main/b/bash/bash_5.2-1ubuntu2/changelog http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/main/b/bash/bas...) shows 5.2.1+debian/ubuntu patches.
  - jjtheblunt 4y ago
    They might be bumping into old versions of utilities up to just before GPLv3. From GPLv3 onwards, Apple has had to leave installation of newer versions of tools to users, legally, our publish their own proprietary IP, Stallman’s objective some would say.
- birdyrooster 4y ago
  Furthermore WSL cannot even compile anything
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - kiwijamo 4y ago
    AFAIK gcc et al works just fine in WSL.
    - riolu 4y ago
      I used WSL2 on Windows 10 to compile the WSL2 kernel with additional flags supporting wireguard. So I'm pretty sure compiling works, maybe it was an issue with WSL1?
      - birdyrooster 4y ago
        I concede technically yes it can compile some things but there is such a large catalog of software which fails to compile in WSL2 it’s frustrating. A great example is the many Python modules with c extensions.
- Illotus 4y ago
  Docker has much better IO perf with lot of small files on WSL vs Mac. Currently doing Rails development and had to revert to running local straight up on Mac vs Docker because on Docker it was extremely slow. This of course means more testing on prod like cloud envs so it is really a load of crap.
  - duffyjp 4y ago
    I've experienced this with IO performance for huge files too. A while back I setup a caching service on a spare older Mac Mini first with Docker for macOS and when it couldn't keep up I installed Windows and it was slightly better but still crap. I threw Ubuntu on it and I was saturating the gigabit connection without breaking a sweat. I'm also a Rails dev and I do all my dev work on an M1 mac and don't even have Docker installed, though I've heard it has improved a lot recently.
gjsman-1000 4y ago
It's not perfect, but if you buy Parallels, it does have automated ARM-based setup of Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, and Kali. Which makes more sense anyway - then you are running 2 VMs on your host, instead of a VM and a VM inside a VM (because WSL2 is just a lightweight VM).
- giancarlostoro 4y ago
  > (because WSL2 is just a lightweight VM). It does use Hyper-V if I remember correctly.
- moondev 4y ago
  To date, nested virt on m1/m2 is not possible which is a huge bummer. You should be able to run WSL1 inside an aarch64 windows vm however.
aseipp 4y ago
Does Hyper-V not support nested virtualization? Or maybe macOS doesn't support it. Because M2 chips absolutely have FEAT_NV2 so nested virt should work well; only ARM system around with it. One more win for Asahi Linux, I guess.
- viraptor 4y ago
  Yeah, I was just looking for that one. It seems to be somehow supported in Linux (https://lwn.net/Articles/919851/ https://lwn.net/Articles/919851/) and Hyper-V does do nested virtualisation (https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/virtualization/hyper-v-on-windows/user-guide/nested-virtualization https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/virtualization/hyper-v-on-...) so... Either a delayed feature or yet another silly licensing thing.
  - appleperfect 4y ago
    [flagged]
- zamadatix 4y ago
  At the moment the missing component is nested virtualization support in the macOS Virtualization Framework. Once added there would probably need to be some minor changes in Parallels to take use of it as well.
- xen2xen1 4y ago
  You can do nested virtualization under VMware and Windows 11 / Hyperv, but there are lots of caveats and requirements. So yes.
theodric 4y ago
Ok but why on Earth would you run WSL in Windows on macOS when you could just run Linux on macOS or (gasp) use the UNIX layer in macOS for your hackery? Does WSL have some special sauce I'm missing out on? I never found it more compelling than more mature solutions like Cygwin, docker, or a regular VM.
- nailuj 4y ago
  Have you used the later versions of WSL (WSL 2 under Windows 11)? You have seamless bidirectional file system access, GUI applications that mesh with the rest of the desktop, can use Windows Terminal and have other tabs with PowerShell open, no network setup or fiddling required. It's impressively convenient.
  - shaunsingh 4y ago
    Right, but that's still one layer of abstraction above a native unix system, which macOS is.

dev_tty01 4y ago

I've had a licensed copy of Win11 Arm running in Parallels for months. I just installed the dev version as mentioned in the AT article. At first it wouldn't let me buy a license, but at some point a few months ago it allowed me to buy a license and that has been fine ever since. Runs great. Good that the support has become official now.