4 ms·

You don’t need a boot manager for that except the one built into your motherboard.

by Asmod4n 4y ago

AshamedCaptain 4y ago
Most UEFI devices out there don't have any type of boot menu.
- Asmod4n 4y ago
  Haven’t seen one PC or Server mainboard without a UEFI boot menu no matter the price range and age. What devices are you referring to?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- aesh2Xa1 4y ago
  https://uefi.org/specs/UEFI/2.10/02_Overview.html#boot-manager https://uefi.org/specs/UEFI/2.10/02_Overview.html#boot-manag... https://uefi.org/specs/UEFI/2.10/03_Boot_Manager.html https://uefi.org/specs/UEFI/2.10/03_Boot_Manager.html
  - AshamedCaptain 4y ago
    I didn't say boot loader, I said boot _menu_. The boot loader may be a mandatory part of UEFI (otherwise the entire thing wouldn't actually work...), but there is absolutely no mandate for having any type of GUI, not even a boot menu. Most devices out there will always boot the first entry (or BootNext) no questions asked. Some devices may allow reordering boot loader entries in their setup program. Almost no devices will actually a) pause booting whenever there are multiple valid entries b) show you a menu where you can choose one of alternatives c) respect your timeout value, choosing the first boot entry if the timeout expires. Incidentally these 3 happen to be the basic properties of what people usually demand from a boot manager.
    - avhception 4y ago
      And some devices are simply hardcoded to _always_ boot \EFI\BOOT\BOOTX64.EFI, no matter what. EFI implementations are all over the place. It's gotten somewhat better, but it's hard to rely on anything. But we got decorative flames in the firmware setup dialogues now. Flames make computer go fast.
      - prmoustache 4y ago
        what kind of exotic devices are you buying to get flames in firmware setuos and not have boot menu? I've only ever got those white in a blue screen firmwares.
        avhception 4y ago
        A Lenovo or HPe system won't have that, of course. But I've had plenty of "consumer" boards for my gaming rigs, or handled friends gaming mainboards. It's not all flames of course. But the design of the firmware UI certainly got really flamboyant when UEFI hit the scene while quality of implementation really suffered. It's gotten somewhat better, but now it's getting hard to buy non-enterprise hardware without over 9000 RGB LEDs on there. Sigh. At least the LEDs don't bother my bootloader.
    - MobiusHorizons 4y ago
      The whole point is that I don’t want it to pause boot to show me a menu unless the system is broken. Boot should not need to be interactive by default. But every uefi laptop and desktop device I have ever used has a key you can press during boot to bring up a boot menu.
    - aesh2Xa1 4y ago
      Both URLs I sourced directly mention a menu. Here's the first: > UEFI allows the consolidation of boot menus from the OS loader and platform firmware into a single platform firmware menu. These platform firmware menus will allow the selection of any UEFI OS loader from any partition on any boot medium that is supported by UEFI boot services. An UEFI OS loader can support multiple options that can appear on the user interface. It is also possible to include legacy boot options, such as booting from the A: or C: drive in the platform firmware boot menus.
- jeroenhd 4y ago
  That's not my experience. I've only ever seen HP do an actual file browser in UEFI to pick an arbitrary .EFI file, but overall every computer and laptop I've seen has a button you can press to pick from a list of operating systems available to boot.
- MobiusHorizons 4y ago
  You might not think of it as a boot menu, but every uefi system I have ever used has a menu you can bring up by holding a key during boot that lets you choose which disk to boot from. In reality this menu has all the entries you set up in efibootmgr. You can also usually see this menu from the save and exit page of the setup/bios page. These entries are about as customizable as grub entries via efibootmgr.
Kwpolska 4y ago
The one in my Dell laptop takes quite long to get into and out of. It’s not something you would want to use regularly.
- Quekid5 4y ago
  If it's for recovery, etc. then that may not be a real issue? EDIT: Anyway, I'd probably only ever rely on an external USB stick, but I don't know how that interacts with Secure Boot, tbh. I use Ventoy + loads of images of popular distros. Can fit quite a few distros on a 128 GiB USB stick! :D
  - sgtnoodle 4y ago
    As long as the bootloader/kernel image is signed, I don't think it matters to secure boot whether or not it was loaded off a USB stick. Presumably the firmware implementing the secure boot check must copy the image into RAM before verifying it anyway, at which point the USB storage doesn't matter. Of course, the firmware may be configured to refuse to boot a USB drive as a matter of policy.
veidr 4y ago
Well, one reason you'd need one is if your boot filesystem is encrypted and you want to be able to reboot the machine remotely. (I use ZFSBootMenu for this purpose; it's accessible via SSH and can be used to decrypt the filesystem and choose what to boot.) There are hardware solutions to that problem, but most regular PCs don't come with a remotely-accessible boot menu.
usr1106 4y ago
Except if the boot manager implementation of the UEFI is bad. For example on Intel NUCs you cannot use one-shot functionality and kernel command line at the same time. If you put systemd-boot in between it works.
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
  My old mobo would refuse to accept NVRAM changes, overwrite them at boot or something, then hardcoded try to launch the windows bootloader from the ESP. I had to trick it by naming my bootloader the same thing as the Windows bootloader. Signing new things for secure boot didn't work at all but luckily it could be disabled. This was an MSI motherboard in case anyone's wondering.

You don’t need a boot manager for that except the one built into your motherboard.

AshamedCaptain 4y ago

Most UEFI devices out there don't have any type of boot menu.

Asmod4n 4y ago
Haven’t seen one PC or Server mainboard without a UEFI boot menu no matter the price range and age. What devices are you referring to?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
aesh2Xa1 4y ago
https://uefi.org/specs/UEFI/2.10/02_Overview.html#boot-manager https://uefi.org/specs/UEFI/2.10/02_Overview.html#boot-manag... https://uefi.org/specs/UEFI/2.10/03_Boot_Manager.html https://uefi.org/specs/UEFI/2.10/03_Boot_Manager.html
- AshamedCaptain 4y ago
  I didn't say boot loader, I said boot _menu_. The boot loader may be a mandatory part of UEFI (otherwise the entire thing wouldn't actually work...), but there is absolutely no mandate for having any type of GUI, not even a boot menu. Most devices out there will always boot the first entry (or BootNext) no questions asked. Some devices may allow reordering boot loader entries in their setup program. Almost no devices will actually a) pause booting whenever there are multiple valid entries b) show you a menu where you can choose one of alternatives c) respect your timeout value, choosing the first boot entry if the timeout expires. Incidentally these 3 happen to be the basic properties of what people usually demand from a boot manager.
  - avhception 4y ago
    And some devices are simply hardcoded to _always_ boot \EFI\BOOT\BOOTX64.EFI, no matter what. EFI implementations are all over the place. It's gotten somewhat better, but it's hard to rely on anything. But we got decorative flames in the firmware setup dialogues now. Flames make computer go fast.
    - prmoustache 4y ago
      what kind of exotic devices are you buying to get flames in firmware setuos and not have boot menu? I've only ever got those white in a blue screen firmwares.
      - avhception 4y ago
        A Lenovo or HPe system won't have that, of course. But I've had plenty of "consumer" boards for my gaming rigs, or handled friends gaming mainboards. It's not all flames of course. But the design of the firmware UI certainly got really flamboyant when UEFI hit the scene while quality of implementation really suffered. It's gotten somewhat better, but now it's getting hard to buy non-enterprise hardware without over 9000 RGB LEDs on there. Sigh. At least the LEDs don't bother my bootloader.
  - MobiusHorizons 4y ago
    The whole point is that I don’t want it to pause boot to show me a menu unless the system is broken. Boot should not need to be interactive by default. But every uefi laptop and desktop device I have ever used has a key you can press during boot to bring up a boot menu.
  - aesh2Xa1 4y ago
    Both URLs I sourced directly mention a menu. Here's the first: > UEFI allows the consolidation of boot menus from the OS loader and platform firmware into a single platform firmware menu. These platform firmware menus will allow the selection of any UEFI OS loader from any partition on any boot medium that is supported by UEFI boot services. An UEFI OS loader can support multiple options that can appear on the user interface. It is also possible to include legacy boot options, such as booting from the A: or C: drive in the platform firmware boot menus.
jeroenhd 4y ago
That's not my experience. I've only ever seen HP do an actual file browser in UEFI to pick an arbitrary .EFI file, but overall every computer and laptop I've seen has a button you can press to pick from a list of operating systems available to boot.
MobiusHorizons 4y ago
You might not think of it as a boot menu, but every uefi system I have ever used has a menu you can bring up by holding a key during boot that lets you choose which disk to boot from. In reality this menu has all the entries you set up in efibootmgr. You can also usually see this menu from the save and exit page of the setup/bios page. These entries are about as customizable as grub entries via efibootmgr.

Kwpolska 4y ago

The one in my Dell laptop takes quite long to get into and out of. It’s not something you would want to use regularly.

Quekid5 4y ago
If it's for recovery, etc. then that may not be a real issue? EDIT: Anyway, I'd probably only ever rely on an external USB stick, but I don't know how that interacts with Secure Boot, tbh. I use Ventoy + loads of images of popular distros. Can fit quite a few distros on a 128 GiB USB stick! :D
- sgtnoodle 4y ago
  As long as the bootloader/kernel image is signed, I don't think it matters to secure boot whether or not it was loaded off a USB stick. Presumably the firmware implementing the secure boot check must copy the image into RAM before verifying it anyway, at which point the USB storage doesn't matter. Of course, the firmware may be configured to refuse to boot a USB drive as a matter of policy.

veidr 4y ago

Well, one reason you'd need one is if your boot filesystem is encrypted and you want to be able to reboot the machine remotely. (I use ZFSBootMenu for this purpose; it's accessible via SSH and can be used to decrypt the filesystem and choose what to boot.) There are hardware solutions to that problem, but most regular PCs don't come with a remotely-accessible boot menu.

usr1106 4y ago

Except if the boot manager implementation of the UEFI is bad. For example on Intel NUCs you cannot use one-shot functionality and kernel command line at the same time. If you put systemd-boot in between it works.

mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
My old mobo would refuse to accept NVRAM changes, overwrite them at boot or something, then hardcoded try to launch the windows bootloader from the ESP. I had to trick it by naming my bootloader the same thing as the Windows bootloader. Signing new things for secure boot didn't work at all but luckily it could be disabled. This was an MSI motherboard in case anyone's wondering.