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I disagree. If someone is a bad driver, and causing crashes, we don't say "we need to improve the road system". We suspend the drivers license until they can pr

by 2h 4y ago

I disagree. If someone is a bad driver, and causing crashes, we don't say "we need to improve the road system". We suspend the drivers license until they can prove they are capable of being a safe driver. We should hold this software to the same standard. Until it can demonstrate safety at or above human level, it should be outlawed. Road systems should always be worked on, but when a crash happens its usually the drivers fault, except in a minority of cases where bad road engineering is to blame. this self driving is fucking up enough that it cannot be blamed on the roads anymore, if it ever could.

jjcon 4y ago
Tesla publishes their safety data quarterly no need for your many assumptions and speculations - Teslas are already much safer than the average driver, especially when autopilot is on https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport
- dmix 4y ago
  One interesting bit from a different 3rd party study: > Cambridge Mobile Telematics also found that people driving Teslas were 21% less likely to engage in distracted driving with their phone in their Tesla compared to when they drove their other car. Maybe the software integration helps avoid this? Lots of other cars have much more complicated interfaces to hook up calls and reading texts. My mom struggled to figure out her car even supported Android Auto. It might just be it's a higher end car, but they didn't see it for an EV Porsche > These findings include an analysis of Tesla drivers who also operate another vehicle. These drivers are nearly 50% less likely to crash while driving their Tesla than any other vehicle they operate. We conducted the same analysis on individuals who operate a Porsche and another vehicle. In this case, we observed the opposite effect. Porsche drivers are 55% more likely to crash while driving their Porsche compared to their other vehicle. The reduction in speed is likely influenced by automated driving, especially considering how fast a Tesla car can accelerate vs normal cars: > They were 9% less likely to drive above the speed limit. https://electrek.co/2022/05/27/tesla-owners-less-likely-crash-than-their-other-cars/ https://electrek.co/2022/05/27/tesla-owners-less-likely-cras...
  - normaljoe 4y ago
    > Maybe the software integration helps avoid this? With auto pilot on the car is watching you. If you take eyes off the road it issues more pay attention nags. Failure to comply removes FSD Beta. So you have a feedback loop where paying attention becomes more important then your phone.
- super_flanker 4y ago
  Autopilot is not FSD, this report is clearly about Autopilot, they haven't mentioned anything about FSD in it.
  - jjcon 4y ago
    FSD is an extension of the autopilot capability and the autopilot capability has proven extremely safe. As soon as there is statistically enough data they will release FSD numbers too but that means tens of millions of miles logged on roads since crashes are generally uncommon
- janalsncm 4y ago
  Is autopilot available for all roads? If not, that’s a significant and unstated statistical bias in this data. To have a true comparison, you will need to include only human accidents on roads where Teslas can use autopilot.
sacrosancty 4y ago
[dead]
panick21_ 4y ago
> I disagree. If someone is a bad driver, and causing crashes, we don't say "we need to improve the road system". Well yes, and that is literally exactly the problem. That is exactly why its so unsafe in the US. Because instead of building a safe system everything is blamed on people. In countries that take road safety seriously, every crash is analyzed and often the road system is changed to make sure it does not happen again. That is why places like Finland, Netherlands and so on have been consistently improving in terms of death and harm caused by the road system. Again, the book I linked goes into a lot of detail about road safety engineering. > We suspend the drivers license until they can prove they are capable of being a safe driver. An unsafe designed street often leads to situation where even good drivers intuitively do the wrong thing. Again, this is exactly the problem. If you build a system where lots of avg. drivers make accidents, then you have a lot of accidents. > We should hold this software to the same standard. Until it can demonstrate safety at or above human level, it should be outlawed. Yes, but its a question of how much limited resources should be invested in analyzing and validating each piece of software by each manufacturer. In general software like Tesla AP would likely pass this test. I am not against such tests but the reality is that resources are limited. > Road systems should always be worked on, but when a crash happens its usually the drivers fault, except in a minority of cases where bad road engineering is to blame. I strongly disagree with this statement. Its a totally false analysis. If a system is designed in a way known to be non-intuitive and leading to a very high rate accidents then its a bad system. Just calling everybody who makes a mistake a bad drive is a terrible, terrible approach to safety. Once you have a safe road system, if somebody is an extremely bad driver, yes taking that person of the road is good. However in a country where so much of the population depends on a car, that punishment can literally destroy a whole family. So just applying it to anybody who makes a mistake isn't viable, specially in system that makes it incredibly easy to make mistakes. The numbers don't even show the problem, the unsafe road system leads to less people walking in the US, and somehow still creating a high rate of deaths for people who walk.
- eternityforest 4y ago
  America hates any solution to a problem that doesn't involve training individuals to act differently. I constantly hear people who want warning labels gone and periodic PSAs against mixing bleach and ammonia removed, people who don't want mandatory baby left in a hot car detectors, people who hate OSHA, etc. We think the solution should always be human. That the way to solve climate change is homesteads, the solution to poverty is individuals working harder, etc. When anything we don't want happens, we think "I'll try harder next time" not "We will eliminate this as a possibility". People treat life as a sport rather than an engineering challenge, they want to "win fairly", not make it impossible to lose, they want everything they do to say something about their own ability rather than say something about a clever process that makes individual skill irrelevant. I really don't exactly like that aspect of humanity, constantly making everything into a sport.
ignormies 4y ago
There's a book called "There Are No Accidents" that goes into depth discussing this fallacy that you should read. https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2022/02/15/excerpt-there-are-no-accidents-yet-we-always-blame-the-victim/ https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2022/02/15/excerpt-there-are-no-...
- 2h 4y ago
  apparently youve never heard the phrase "texting while driving" or "drunk driving"
  - panick21_ 4y ago
    Its just how incredibly wrong you are. Go look at Salt Lake City. Its is true, Salt Lake City despite horrible bad road design, like Huston. But because people drink less they have slightly less accidents. However international they are still terrible. And that is with there being very little walking. If they had pedestrian and cyclist numbers like Amsterdam it would be 24/7 mass murder.
janalsncm 4y ago
At an individual level that makes sense. But at a city level that doesn’t work. People will still need to get around.

by 2h 4y ago

jjcon 4y ago

Tesla publishes their safety data quarterly no need for your many assumptions and speculations - Teslas are already much safer than the average driver, especially when autopilot is on https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport

dmix 4y ago
One interesting bit from a different 3rd party study: > Cambridge Mobile Telematics also found that people driving Teslas were 21% less likely to engage in distracted driving with their phone in their Tesla compared to when they drove their other car. Maybe the software integration helps avoid this? Lots of other cars have much more complicated interfaces to hook up calls and reading texts. My mom struggled to figure out her car even supported Android Auto. It might just be it's a higher end car, but they didn't see it for an EV Porsche > These findings include an analysis of Tesla drivers who also operate another vehicle. These drivers are nearly 50% less likely to crash while driving their Tesla than any other vehicle they operate. We conducted the same analysis on individuals who operate a Porsche and another vehicle. In this case, we observed the opposite effect. Porsche drivers are 55% more likely to crash while driving their Porsche compared to their other vehicle. The reduction in speed is likely influenced by automated driving, especially considering how fast a Tesla car can accelerate vs normal cars: > They were 9% less likely to drive above the speed limit. https://electrek.co/2022/05/27/tesla-owners-less-likely-crash-than-their-other-cars/ https://electrek.co/2022/05/27/tesla-owners-less-likely-cras...
- normaljoe 4y ago
  > Maybe the software integration helps avoid this? With auto pilot on the car is watching you. If you take eyes off the road it issues more pay attention nags. Failure to comply removes FSD Beta. So you have a feedback loop where paying attention becomes more important then your phone.
super_flanker 4y ago
Autopilot is not FSD, this report is clearly about Autopilot, they haven't mentioned anything about FSD in it.
- jjcon 4y ago
  FSD is an extension of the autopilot capability and the autopilot capability has proven extremely safe. As soon as there is statistically enough data they will release FSD numbers too but that means tens of millions of miles logged on roads since crashes are generally uncommon
janalsncm 4y ago
Is autopilot available for all roads? If not, that’s a significant and unstated statistical bias in this data. To have a true comparison, you will need to include only human accidents on roads where Teslas can use autopilot.

sacrosancty 4y ago

[dead]

panick21_ 4y ago

> I disagree. If someone is a bad driver, and causing crashes, we don't say "we need to improve the road system". Well yes, and that is literally exactly the problem. That is exactly why its so unsafe in the US. Because instead of building a safe system everything is blamed on people. In countries that take road safety seriously, every crash is analyzed and often the road system is changed to make sure it does not happen again. That is why places like Finland, Netherlands and so on have been consistently improving in terms of death and harm caused by the road system. Again, the book I linked goes into a lot of detail about road safety engineering. > We suspend the drivers license until they can prove they are capable of being a safe driver. An unsafe designed street often leads to situation where even good drivers intuitively do the wrong thing. Again, this is exactly the problem. If you build a system where lots of avg. drivers make accidents, then you have a lot of accidents. > We should hold this software to the same standard. Until it can demonstrate safety at or above human level, it should be outlawed. Yes, but its a question of how much limited resources should be invested in analyzing and validating each piece of software by each manufacturer. In general software like Tesla AP would likely pass this test. I am not against such tests but the reality is that resources are limited. > Road systems should always be worked on, but when a crash happens its usually the drivers fault, except in a minority of cases where bad road engineering is to blame. I strongly disagree with this statement. Its a totally false analysis. If a system is designed in a way known to be non-intuitive and leading to a very high rate accidents then its a bad system. Just calling everybody who makes a mistake a bad drive is a terrible, terrible approach to safety. Once you have a safe road system, if somebody is an extremely bad driver, yes taking that person of the road is good. However in a country where so much of the population depends on a car, that punishment can literally destroy a whole family. So just applying it to anybody who makes a mistake isn't viable, specially in system that makes it incredibly easy to make mistakes. The numbers don't even show the problem, the unsafe road system leads to less people walking in the US, and somehow still creating a high rate of deaths for people who walk.

eternityforest 4y ago
America hates any solution to a problem that doesn't involve training individuals to act differently. I constantly hear people who want warning labels gone and periodic PSAs against mixing bleach and ammonia removed, people who don't want mandatory baby left in a hot car detectors, people who hate OSHA, etc. We think the solution should always be human. That the way to solve climate change is homesteads, the solution to poverty is individuals working harder, etc. When anything we don't want happens, we think "I'll try harder next time" not "We will eliminate this as a possibility". People treat life as a sport rather than an engineering challenge, they want to "win fairly", not make it impossible to lose, they want everything they do to say something about their own ability rather than say something about a clever process that makes individual skill irrelevant. I really don't exactly like that aspect of humanity, constantly making everything into a sport.

ignormies 4y ago

There's a book called "There Are No Accidents" that goes into depth discussing this fallacy that you should read. https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2022/02/15/excerpt-there-are-no-accidents-yet-we-always-blame-the-victim/ https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2022/02/15/excerpt-there-are-no-...

2h 4y ago
apparently youve never heard the phrase "texting while driving" or "drunk driving"
- panick21_ 4y ago
  Its just how incredibly wrong you are. Go look at Salt Lake City. Its is true, Salt Lake City despite horrible bad road design, like Huston. But because people drink less they have slightly less accidents. However international they are still terrible. And that is with there being very little walking. If they had pedestrian and cyclist numbers like Amsterdam it would be 24/7 mass murder.

janalsncm 4y ago

At an individual level that makes sense. But at a city level that doesn’t work. People will still need to get around.