6 ms·

If a balloon flies at an altitude used by commercial aircraft, it should have a transponder similar to commercial aircraft.

ceejayoz 4y ago
The balloon pictured in the article has essentially a zero percent chance of causing harm to a commercial airliner.
- buildbot 4y ago
  Personally I am not an expert, but since you seem to know, what happens to a turbofan when ingesting a ballon like this?
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    Of this small, thin, lightweight sort? Nothing. The engines will fairly happily mulch an entire human (warning: graphic; https://imgur.com/a/1T5YQ https://imgur.com/a/1T5YQ). A Mylar balloon isn't gonna faze it.
    - jaywalk 4y ago
      An airliner can completely lose a single engine in flight without much of a problem. But the engine in that picture is significantly damaged.
    - operatingthetan 4y ago
      That's not true. Bird strikes are a thing and cause flameouts. You can't even takeoff/land on dirt runways with most jets because the dust will damage the engines.
      - ceejayoz 4y ago
        Smack someone with a goose, then smack them with a Mylar balloon. Compare the results. You don't want to routinely ingest gravel from a dirt runway (nor balloons!) into your engines. Having one pebble kick up off the runway won't cause an issue.
        operatingthetan 4y ago
        You suggested an engine will "happily" consume a human which suggests it would continue functioning, you're getting blowback because you are making statements that indicate you don't know what you're talking about.
    - avalys 4y ago
      That engine is totaled.
      - ceejayoz 4y ago
        That engine took at least 150 pounds worth of bony human in, turned them into mulch, and did no damage to the rest of the aircraft. The other engine also remains intact. Pico balloons are measured in grams. A Mylar balloon isn't going to do anything like that much damage.
        tjohns 4y ago
        First, we're not talking a tiny 12 inch party balloon. Weather balloons are easily 20 feet wide at altitude. But more importantly, you've always got a sizable package of hard electronics dangling off the balloon for sensors and telemetry. Ingesting that is going to cause damage, guaranteed.
        ceejayoz 4y ago
        > First, we're not talking a tiny 12 inch party balloon. Click the link, look at the photo. These are not large weather balloons. The article even says "The club’s silver-coated, party-style, “pico balloon”..."
        krisoft 4y ago
        > Weather balloons are easily 20 feet wide at altitude. But this is not a weather balloon in question but a pico balloon. 14 cfr § 101.1 4 provides the limits on them. > you've always got a sizable package of hard electronics dangling off the balloon for sensors and telemetry Both the weight and the density of the payload package is limited by law. > Ingesting that is going to cause damage, guaranteed. Excuse me but i am going to believe the FAA on this over your say so. They say pico balloons are fine and they are extremely risk awerse. If they say it is fine then they are fine by a wide margin.
    - TimTheTinker 4y ago
      Why are birds a hazard then?
      - ceejayoz 4y ago
        Because they are more substantial, and because you tend to hit them on takeoff/landing, which is the dangerous part of flight. You hit a bird at 30k feet and you've got plenty of options - including the second engine.
        tempestn 4y ago
        Also usually when bird strikes cause real problems it's a flock of birds, not a single one.
      - kortex 4y ago
        A bird is usually not an issue (unless it's huge like a condor or something). The problem is ingesting a whole flock. Turbofans are designed to fling debris (rain, hail, gravel, birds) out to the bypass via centrifugal force. However, too much material (or insufficient thrust) causes the impeller to bog down, so more junk gets sucked into the burn chamber, which can cause a flameout.
    - MichaelApproved 4y ago
      Did you see the fan blades in the pictures you linked to? They’re chipped, cracked, and bent. That’s anything but happy. I bet the balloon and, more importantly, the payload would indeed faze it.
      - ceejayoz 4y ago
        > They’re chipped, cracked, and bent. After processing a hundred and fifty pounds or more of human being. If that plane had done so at 30k feet, it'd have been an entirely survivable emergency.
        MichaelApproved 4y ago
        There’s a difference between survivable and happily mulching.
    - napsterbr 4y ago
      Out of curiosity, do you have more context regarding this picture (like when/where it happened)?
      - ceejayoz 4y ago
        El Paso, Texas, 2006. NTSB report DFW06FA056. https://www.ntsb.gov/about/employment/_layouts/15/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20060131x00140&ntsbno=dfw06fa056&akey=1 https://www.ntsb.gov/about/employment/_layouts/15/ntsb.aviat...
  - qbasic_forever 4y ago
    It's shredded and burned up almost instantly. They test engines to failure by taking an entire 15 lb. or so frozen turkey and throwing it directly into the blades to test bird strikes. This balloon is way smaller material than even a small bird. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/24/give-thanks-for-the-fowl-shot-into-jet-engines-in-the-name-of-safety.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/24/give-thanks-for-the-fowl-sho...
    - gridspy 4y ago
      Pretty sure you need to defrost that turkey first.
    - sleepybrett 4y ago
      I think they did an episode of mythbusters where they created a cannon to shoot turkeys at airplane windshields.
- jjtheblunt 4y ago
  if a pilot freaks and abruptly maneuvers to avoid it?
  - shadowgovt 4y ago
    Then they're inconvenienced and discomforted but otherwise fine. The first job of a pilot is "keep the plane flying." Any avoidance maneuver the pilot undertakes should be within the flight envelope of the plane. And planes should be separated enough that emergency maneuvers do not put the plane at risk of immediate collision with another plane. If a pilot saw a balloon, freaked out, nosedived / stalled the plane and it crashed, the investigation would conclude "Pilot error," much the same as it would if a pilot saw a flock of geese and did the same thing.
  - pc86 4y ago
    Nobody is handflying a commercial airliner at 40k feet, and nobody is maneuvering an airliner traveling 500-600mph to avoid a balloon like this, it's unlikely you'd even see it before you ripped through it.
jkingsman 4y ago
Per FAA regulations, that is not necessary when the payload is below certain limits.
tjohns 4y ago
That's not really feasible. Transponders require relatively huge power sources - 70-125 watts of RF output. The battery needed to support that for a usable length of time would be far too heavy. However, they often do have passive radar reflectors.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

ceejayoz 4y ago

The balloon pictured in the article has essentially a zero percent chance of causing harm to a commercial airliner.

buildbot 4y ago
Personally I am not an expert, but since you seem to know, what happens to a turbofan when ingesting a ballon like this?
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  Of this small, thin, lightweight sort? Nothing. The engines will fairly happily mulch an entire human (warning: graphic; https://imgur.com/a/1T5YQ https://imgur.com/a/1T5YQ). A Mylar balloon isn't gonna faze it.
  - jaywalk 4y ago
    An airliner can completely lose a single engine in flight without much of a problem. But the engine in that picture is significantly damaged.
  - operatingthetan 4y ago
    That's not true. Bird strikes are a thing and cause flameouts. You can't even takeoff/land on dirt runways with most jets because the dust will damage the engines.
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      Smack someone with a goose, then smack them with a Mylar balloon. Compare the results. You don't want to routinely ingest gravel from a dirt runway (nor balloons!) into your engines. Having one pebble kick up off the runway won't cause an issue.
      - operatingthetan 4y ago
        You suggested an engine will "happily" consume a human which suggests it would continue functioning, you're getting blowback because you are making statements that indicate you don't know what you're talking about.
  - avalys 4y ago
    That engine is totaled.
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      That engine took at least 150 pounds worth of bony human in, turned them into mulch, and did no damage to the rest of the aircraft. The other engine also remains intact. Pico balloons are measured in grams. A Mylar balloon isn't going to do anything like that much damage.
      - tjohns 4y ago
        First, we're not talking a tiny 12 inch party balloon. Weather balloons are easily 20 feet wide at altitude. But more importantly, you've always got a sizable package of hard electronics dangling off the balloon for sensors and telemetry. Ingesting that is going to cause damage, guaranteed.
        ceejayoz 4y ago
        > First, we're not talking a tiny 12 inch party balloon. Click the link, look at the photo. These are not large weather balloons. The article even says "The club’s silver-coated, party-style, “pico balloon”..."
        krisoft 4y ago
        > Weather balloons are easily 20 feet wide at altitude. But this is not a weather balloon in question but a pico balloon. 14 cfr § 101.1 4 provides the limits on them. > you've always got a sizable package of hard electronics dangling off the balloon for sensors and telemetry Both the weight and the density of the payload package is limited by law. > Ingesting that is going to cause damage, guaranteed. Excuse me but i am going to believe the FAA on this over your say so. They say pico balloons are fine and they are extremely risk awerse. If they say it is fine then they are fine by a wide margin.
  - TimTheTinker 4y ago
    Why are birds a hazard then?
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      Because they are more substantial, and because you tend to hit them on takeoff/landing, which is the dangerous part of flight. You hit a bird at 30k feet and you've got plenty of options - including the second engine.
      - tempestn 4y ago
        Also usually when bird strikes cause real problems it's a flock of birds, not a single one.
    - kortex 4y ago
      A bird is usually not an issue (unless it's huge like a condor or something). The problem is ingesting a whole flock. Turbofans are designed to fling debris (rain, hail, gravel, birds) out to the bypass via centrifugal force. However, too much material (or insufficient thrust) causes the impeller to bog down, so more junk gets sucked into the burn chamber, which can cause a flameout.
  - MichaelApproved 4y ago
    Did you see the fan blades in the pictures you linked to? They’re chipped, cracked, and bent. That’s anything but happy. I bet the balloon and, more importantly, the payload would indeed faze it.
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      > They’re chipped, cracked, and bent. After processing a hundred and fifty pounds or more of human being. If that plane had done so at 30k feet, it'd have been an entirely survivable emergency.
      - MichaelApproved 4y ago
        There’s a difference between survivable and happily mulching.
  - napsterbr 4y ago
    Out of curiosity, do you have more context regarding this picture (like when/where it happened)?
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      El Paso, Texas, 2006. NTSB report DFW06FA056. https://www.ntsb.gov/about/employment/_layouts/15/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20060131x00140&ntsbno=dfw06fa056&akey=1 https://www.ntsb.gov/about/employment/_layouts/15/ntsb.aviat...
- qbasic_forever 4y ago
  It's shredded and burned up almost instantly. They test engines to failure by taking an entire 15 lb. or so frozen turkey and throwing it directly into the blades to test bird strikes. This balloon is way smaller material than even a small bird. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/24/give-thanks-for-the-fowl-shot-into-jet-engines-in-the-name-of-safety.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/24/give-thanks-for-the-fowl-sho...
  - gridspy 4y ago
    Pretty sure you need to defrost that turkey first.
  - sleepybrett 4y ago
    I think they did an episode of mythbusters where they created a cannon to shoot turkeys at airplane windshields.
jjtheblunt 4y ago
if a pilot freaks and abruptly maneuvers to avoid it?
- shadowgovt 4y ago
  Then they're inconvenienced and discomforted but otherwise fine. The first job of a pilot is "keep the plane flying." Any avoidance maneuver the pilot undertakes should be within the flight envelope of the plane. And planes should be separated enough that emergency maneuvers do not put the plane at risk of immediate collision with another plane. If a pilot saw a balloon, freaked out, nosedived / stalled the plane and it crashed, the investigation would conclude "Pilot error," much the same as it would if a pilot saw a flock of geese and did the same thing.
- pc86 4y ago
  Nobody is handflying a commercial airliner at 40k feet, and nobody is maneuvering an airliner traveling 500-600mph to avoid a balloon like this, it's unlikely you'd even see it before you ripped through it.

jkingsman 4y ago

Per FAA regulations, that is not necessary when the payload is below certain limits.

tjohns 4y ago

That's not really feasible. Transponders require relatively huge power sources - 70-125 watts of RF output. The battery needed to support that for a usable length of time would be far too heavy. However, they often do have passive radar reflectors.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]