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If someone was feeding Hersh false information why would they reference the Alta class? Assuming it was some Intel op or some insider, did they just google some

by dmix 4y ago

If someone was feeding Hersh false information why would they reference the Alta class? Assuming it was some Intel op or some insider, did they just google some Norwegian navy ships that could plausibly fit the picture? Or did Hersh draw that connection himself? Hersh has been criticized for listening to cranks. Maybe some Intel officer (or adjacent gov/military worker) heard some rumours internally but there was comparmentalization or operational security protecting the details, and then tried to piece it together themselves, before leaking it to Hersh. If it is false it's worth asking why and who would care to push these angles.

tptacek 4y ago
Presumably it's for the same reasons that people gave him faulty technical information about Sarin gas in his debunked Syria story, or whatever weird details he was fed about the notion that the Osama bin Laden raid never happened, or the idea that USSOCOM is secretly controlled by a sect within the Vatican. Because he'll run with it, and people pay attention to him. People troll all the time on the Internet; why would we assume they wouldn't troll everywhere else too?
- rjsw 4y ago
  I didn't think he claimed that the OBL raid never happened, just that the backstory about how he was found was wrong.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    It's above the fold on his LRB story: he claims that Pakistani ISI captured bin Laden, not the US.
    - rjsw 4y ago
      ... and then the US staged a raid to pick him up from the ISI.
      - mannerheim 4y ago
        And it was directed by Stanley Kubrick.
    - Convolutional 4y ago
      As bin Laden was holed up 800 yards from the Pakistan Military Academy, it seems more likely that he was captured by ISI and/or the Pakistani army, as opposed to trying to hide from them there. ISI dealt with bin Laden in the 1980s, and has good intelligence in the region bin Laden had been rumored to be holed up in. It takes more of a leap of faith to believe bin Laden was hiding from the Pakistan military/industrial apparatus 800 yards from the Pakistan Military Academy, than that some high officials knew he was there.
      - mannerheim 4y ago
        I can believe Pakistani intelligence knew where he was the whole time. I don't believe they cut some deal to stage a raid where they came off looking like total morons for purported military aid that never came.
- dmix 4y ago
  I'd still give Hersh the benefit of the doubt he's not just listening to some internet troll type person. There has to be some reputation at play here for him to take it seriously. The odds are high it's someone connected to the US or NATO govs. At least you'd assume so. As another commenter mentioned, he claimed he used to the same fact checkers used by The New Yorker.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    I would not give him the benefit of the doubt, and I have a hard time understanding why anybody would; there is more than ample reason to doubt any story he runs. I can't imagine a credible source working with him, so far has the presumption of accuracy been shifted on his work over the last 10 years. That's why a famous journalist is reduced to running stories from unnamed (and implausible) sources in the first place. "Since I posted my original article, I had a short email correspondence with Seymour Hersh, unfortunately he stopped replying once I asked him about several of the above mentioned inconsistencies and factual inaccuracies."
    - dmix 4y ago
      Maybe it was an aging Intel guy relying on old reputation for credibility who later declined into pushing conspiracy tier thing, so basically two levels of Hersh like people cruising off past glory.
    - halothane 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - astrange 4y ago
        A green account name accusing the #1 (#2?) poster on this site of being an op? Is this reverse psychology?
        halothane 4y ago
        You must know about becoming a first time voter after being on the sidelines? Same here after seeing Seymour Hersch being denigrated and attacked just because some don't agree with his point of view, especially after he has done so much for our country, its ideals and founding principles. I'll take your comment at face value and assume you don't hate on first timers. Otherwise you would fall into the same category of an ad hominem.:)
- jancsika 4y ago
  > the notion that the Osama bin Laden raid never happened The first sentence of Hersh's article reads: "It’s been four years since a group of US Navy Seals assassinated Osama bin Laden in a night raid on a high-walled compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan." His entire article then goes on to lay out a set of details for both the lead up and the execution of that raid, including the execution of bin Laden. Those details conflict with the details officially given by the Obama administration-- both the details given in the days after the event (which Hersh cites) and the clarifications from the administration in the weeks after the event. In any case, Obama's administration and Hersh both clearly agreed that there was a raid on the exact same location on the exact same evening, involving the exact same helicopters and Navy Seals, in which the exact same bin Laden was killed. In short, what you wrote here is factually inaccurate. > the idea that USSOCOM is secretly controlled by a sect within the Vatican Never heard about that one. Where did he write about that idea? Edit: decided to not use the word "tenuous" to describe the Obama admin's account in the days after the raid. What I remember Hersh discussing was the admin's initial claim that the Seals had shot him in self defense, which was later clarified/retracted by the administration.
epistasis 4y ago
There are all sorts of interested parties in creating doubt about the attack, and the most likely is of course the master of this, Russia. It also fits very well with past bad reporting from Hersh. The detail makes the story more plausible, later debunking matters far less than the initial report and the uncertainty that this sows in people's minds. Taking attention away from the true culprit definitely helps. And any ammunition that can be used to make democracies in the West have more doubt and internal wasted debate definitely helps whoever actually destroyed the pipeline.
- tptacek 4y ago
  Trying to work backwards from the (likely true) notion that Hersh's story is fiction is just as intellectually flawed. We don't anything about Hersh's source or their motives. You could write an HN comment about how the CIA planted this whole story to cast doubt on the actual US-led operation to blow up (some) of the Nord Stream pipeline. Or you could write the opposite comment. There's just nothing to go on. The only thing we can really discuss here is whether the Hersh story is credible. It seems clearly not to be. If we establish that, that's all we get: the fact that one story about what happened is false. We'll be no closer to knowing what actually happened. That's life!
mushbino 4y ago
If it were false, it would be Hersh's first false story. He broke My Lai and Abu Ghraib. He's one of the most accomplished journalists in history.
- mikeyouse 4y ago
  Hersh wrote an article that broke through on Abu Gharib after several other outlets and the Red Cross had already been raising the alarm. His article was important and impactful but "breaking" is really overstating his impact there.. Edited to add a timeline rather than the wall of text; * June 2023, Amnesty International calls out Abu Gharib as the site where US troops are holding Iraqis without charge in questionable conditions and reports on a riot there that resulted in the death of at least 1 prisoner. * July 2023, Amnesty reports further after interviewing several prisoners of Abu Gharib that coalition forces are torturing prisoners using prolonged sleep deprivation, prolonged restraint in painful positions -- sometimes combined with exposure to loud music, prolonged hooding and exposure to bright lights. Amnesty would go on to write dozens more reports about the conditions in the prisons there. * November 2003, AP writes an article about the terrible conditions faced by prisoners in the largest camps including reports of uprising and shootings at Abu Gharib. * January 2004, Darby blows the whistle and provides a CD full of images of torture to US Army criminal investigators. * January 2004, based on Red Cross reports from their inspectors in Iraq, Army commissions Taguba Report to investigate the rampant reports of torture and inhumane conditions in Iraqi prisons. Report was completed in February and found tons of torture. * February 2004, Amnesty reports on further torture within Iraqi prisons naming specific victims, techniques, and prisons. * Late April, 2004 First pictures of torture start being released among hints of a secret Army Report. * April 27, 2004, 60 Minutes publishes report detailing the abuse and publishes several pictures from Darby's disc. Dan Rather names several soldiers who the Army had been quietly court martialing. They had received the report / pictures ~3/4 weeks earlier. * April 30, 2004, Hersh's New Yorker piece comes out with more details.
- astrange 4y ago
  That was 20 years ago. Since then he's apparently gone nuts since he eg believes Opus Dei controls the US military. Though before Abu Ghraib he also claimed the Chicago mob fixed JFK's presidential election.
nwallin 4y ago
If the point is just to muddy the waters, you don't need a story that's airtight, it just needs to be convincing enough to spark peoples' biases. If it's a crank, well, it's a crank. When I was in the Air Force, and still had a TS clearance, there was a friend+coworker of mine that was deep into conspiracy theories. Flat Earth, Moon Hoax, 9/11 truther, and a few others I don't remember. Everything we talked about he had loads of details. I knew it was all nonsense of course, because you're talking about flat earth and all that; if I didn't know he was a full blown conspiracy theorist? If I just knew he was a system administrator with a top secret security clearance attached to an intelligence squadron? And he was telling me a story about something the intelligence community did? He'd be very believable.

by dmix 4y ago

tptacek 4y ago

Presumably it's for the same reasons that people gave him faulty technical information about Sarin gas in his debunked Syria story, or whatever weird details he was fed about the notion that the Osama bin Laden raid never happened, or the idea that USSOCOM is secretly controlled by a sect within the Vatican. Because he'll run with it, and people pay attention to him. People troll all the time on the Internet; why would we assume they wouldn't troll everywhere else too?

rjsw 4y ago
I didn't think he claimed that the OBL raid never happened, just that the backstory about how he was found was wrong.
- tptacek 4y ago
  It's above the fold on his LRB story: he claims that Pakistani ISI captured bin Laden, not the US.
  - rjsw 4y ago
    ... and then the US staged a raid to pick him up from the ISI.
    - mannerheim 4y ago
      And it was directed by Stanley Kubrick.
  - Convolutional 4y ago
    As bin Laden was holed up 800 yards from the Pakistan Military Academy, it seems more likely that he was captured by ISI and/or the Pakistani army, as opposed to trying to hide from them there. ISI dealt with bin Laden in the 1980s, and has good intelligence in the region bin Laden had been rumored to be holed up in. It takes more of a leap of faith to believe bin Laden was hiding from the Pakistan military/industrial apparatus 800 yards from the Pakistan Military Academy, than that some high officials knew he was there.
    - mannerheim 4y ago
      I can believe Pakistani intelligence knew where he was the whole time. I don't believe they cut some deal to stage a raid where they came off looking like total morons for purported military aid that never came.
dmix 4y ago
I'd still give Hersh the benefit of the doubt he's not just listening to some internet troll type person. There has to be some reputation at play here for him to take it seriously. The odds are high it's someone connected to the US or NATO govs. At least you'd assume so. As another commenter mentioned, he claimed he used to the same fact checkers used by The New Yorker.
- tptacek 4y ago
  I would not give him the benefit of the doubt, and I have a hard time understanding why anybody would; there is more than ample reason to doubt any story he runs. I can't imagine a credible source working with him, so far has the presumption of accuracy been shifted on his work over the last 10 years. That's why a famous journalist is reduced to running stories from unnamed (and implausible) sources in the first place. "Since I posted my original article, I had a short email correspondence with Seymour Hersh, unfortunately he stopped replying once I asked him about several of the above mentioned inconsistencies and factual inaccuracies."
  - dmix 4y ago
    Maybe it was an aging Intel guy relying on old reputation for credibility who later declined into pushing conspiracy tier thing, so basically two levels of Hersh like people cruising off past glory.
  - halothane 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - astrange 4y ago
      A green account name accusing the #1 (#2?) poster on this site of being an op? Is this reverse psychology?
      - halothane 4y ago
        You must know about becoming a first time voter after being on the sidelines? Same here after seeing Seymour Hersch being denigrated and attacked just because some don't agree with his point of view, especially after he has done so much for our country, its ideals and founding principles. I'll take your comment at face value and assume you don't hate on first timers. Otherwise you would fall into the same category of an ad hominem.:)
jancsika 4y ago
> the notion that the Osama bin Laden raid never happened The first sentence of Hersh's article reads: "It’s been four years since a group of US Navy Seals assassinated Osama bin Laden in a night raid on a high-walled compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan." His entire article then goes on to lay out a set of details for both the lead up and the execution of that raid, including the execution of bin Laden. Those details conflict with the details officially given by the Obama administration-- both the details given in the days after the event (which Hersh cites) and the clarifications from the administration in the weeks after the event. In any case, Obama's administration and Hersh both clearly agreed that there was a raid on the exact same location on the exact same evening, involving the exact same helicopters and Navy Seals, in which the exact same bin Laden was killed. In short, what you wrote here is factually inaccurate. > the idea that USSOCOM is secretly controlled by a sect within the Vatican Never heard about that one. Where did he write about that idea? Edit: decided to not use the word "tenuous" to describe the Obama admin's account in the days after the raid. What I remember Hersh discussing was the admin's initial claim that the Seals had shot him in self defense, which was later clarified/retracted by the administration.

epistasis 4y ago

There are all sorts of interested parties in creating doubt about the attack, and the most likely is of course the master of this, Russia. It also fits very well with past bad reporting from Hersh. The detail makes the story more plausible, later debunking matters far less than the initial report and the uncertainty that this sows in people's minds. Taking attention away from the true culprit definitely helps. And any ammunition that can be used to make democracies in the West have more doubt and internal wasted debate definitely helps whoever actually destroyed the pipeline.

tptacek 4y ago
Trying to work backwards from the (likely true) notion that Hersh's story is fiction is just as intellectually flawed. We don't anything about Hersh's source or their motives. You could write an HN comment about how the CIA planted this whole story to cast doubt on the actual US-led operation to blow up (some) of the Nord Stream pipeline. Or you could write the opposite comment. There's just nothing to go on. The only thing we can really discuss here is whether the Hersh story is credible. It seems clearly not to be. If we establish that, that's all we get: the fact that one story about what happened is false. We'll be no closer to knowing what actually happened. That's life!

mushbino 4y ago

If it were false, it would be Hersh's first false story. He broke My Lai and Abu Ghraib. He's one of the most accomplished journalists in history.

mikeyouse 4y ago
Hersh wrote an article that broke through on Abu Gharib after several other outlets and the Red Cross had already been raising the alarm. His article was important and impactful but "breaking" is really overstating his impact there.. Edited to add a timeline rather than the wall of text; * June 2023, Amnesty International calls out Abu Gharib as the site where US troops are holding Iraqis without charge in questionable conditions and reports on a riot there that resulted in the death of at least 1 prisoner. * July 2023, Amnesty reports further after interviewing several prisoners of Abu Gharib that coalition forces are torturing prisoners using prolonged sleep deprivation, prolonged restraint in painful positions -- sometimes combined with exposure to loud music, prolonged hooding and exposure to bright lights. Amnesty would go on to write dozens more reports about the conditions in the prisons there. * November 2003, AP writes an article about the terrible conditions faced by prisoners in the largest camps including reports of uprising and shootings at Abu Gharib. * January 2004, Darby blows the whistle and provides a CD full of images of torture to US Army criminal investigators. * January 2004, based on Red Cross reports from their inspectors in Iraq, Army commissions Taguba Report to investigate the rampant reports of torture and inhumane conditions in Iraqi prisons. Report was completed in February and found tons of torture. * February 2004, Amnesty reports on further torture within Iraqi prisons naming specific victims, techniques, and prisons. * Late April, 2004 First pictures of torture start being released among hints of a secret Army Report. * April 27, 2004, 60 Minutes publishes report detailing the abuse and publishes several pictures from Darby's disc. Dan Rather names several soldiers who the Army had been quietly court martialing. They had received the report / pictures ~3/4 weeks earlier. * April 30, 2004, Hersh's New Yorker piece comes out with more details.
astrange 4y ago
That was 20 years ago. Since then he's apparently gone nuts since he eg believes Opus Dei controls the US military. Though before Abu Ghraib he also claimed the Chicago mob fixed JFK's presidential election.

nwallin 4y ago

If the point is just to muddy the waters, you don't need a story that's airtight, it just needs to be convincing enough to spark peoples' biases. If it's a crank, well, it's a crank. When I was in the Air Force, and still had a TS clearance, there was a friend+coworker of mine that was deep into conspiracy theories. Flat Earth, Moon Hoax, 9/11 truther, and a few others I don't remember. Everything we talked about he had loads of details. I knew it was all nonsense of course, because you're talking about flat earth and all that; if I didn't know he was a full blown conspiracy theorist? If I just knew he was a system administrator with a top secret security clearance attached to an intelligence squadron? And he was telling me a story about something the intelligence community did? He'd be very believable.