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> This also has big implications for the hegemony of the App Store and Apple’s control over the web platform No it doesn't. It will make zero difference. Beca

> This also has big implications for the hegemony of the App Store and Apple’s control over the web platform No it doesn't. It will make zero difference. Because developers have been building web based mobile apps for nearly 15 years now. And they never took off not because it lacks push notifications or some other minor feature. It's because the end user experience is terrible. And I've yet to see anything that addresses the difference is latency, responsiveness, feeling etc that you get between native and web apps.

redbar0n 4y ago
Things have changed a lot in the last few years. This is a React Native vs. Ionic React+Capacitor responsiveness demo: https://twitter.com/magnemg/status/1404073426193690634?s=20 https://twitter.com/magnemg/status/1404073426193690634?s=20 You can achieve 60 fps with webapps now: https://ionic.io/blog/ionic-vs-react-native-performance-comparison https://ionic.io/blog/ionic-vs-react-native-performance-comp... With the Shared Element Transitions API you even get smooth page transitions (even for MPA's with full page reload): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mv0_jsWhoE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mv0_jsWhoE
joenathanone 4y ago
I build a PWA currently in use by around 130 people, no one can tell its not native.
- threeseed 4y ago
  I assume you have a native app as well and have benchmarked both with users. Because when you compare native/PWA with mainstream apps the experience is significant.
  - jasonlotito 4y ago
    > I assume you have a native app as well and have benchmarked both with users. Yes, I can speak for them. They compared their native implementation with the one that exists. The users enjoy using the web app compared to the current native app. Why? Because it doesn't exist. Because creating a native app doesn't solve the problem. Because when you say "native", do you mean iOS or Android? Or Mac? Or Windows? Or Linux? Or whatever else there is? Yes, eventually, there might be a desire to build out a native app if it's needed. But the assumption that everyone needs a native app is absurd. Not everything needs a native app, and can work just fine without. As for this persons users? Yes, they enjoy the PWA, because without it, the "native" app wouldn't work for some of them.
    - threeseed 4y ago
      If it’s a choice between PWA and no app then of course PWA has a use. But if you think it will upend the industry then that is frankly delusional. PWA apps are worse than native in every single way for the user. Great for developers. Terrible for users.
      - intrasight 4y ago
        Developers trying to satisfy their users are not trying to upend the industry. And as users can't tell, why is it terrible for users? All kinds of apps can suck and be user unfriendly. That's a different dimension than native vs web.
        threeseed 4y ago
        Users can tell. That's the whole reason for why the last 15 years of trying web based apps have failed.
  - joenathanone 4y ago
    Is isn't noticeable at all if the app is built correctly. My app is used by health care professionals to log their hours and patient charting. Everything is instant when clicked and the app also has limited offline functionality. It's snappier than most mainstream native apps. Everything is native HTML 5 & CSS with very minimal javascript to handle logic and validate inputs.
jstummbillig 4y ago
> And they never took off not because it lacks push notifications or some other minor feature. Actually, that is precisely why they didn't take off: Without push notifications a lot of mobile applications are simply not feasible. If something is not feasible, most people will have no reason to invest in ux. It's self-fulfilling. However, with push api, cache api, being installable (and maybe some additional apis that elude me right now), I don't see any specific thing that would not allow carefully crated web apps to have great ux on mobile.
- laingc 4y ago
  I am genuinely curious about this. I prefer native apps to web apps, but I have notifications disabled for every app I install except those that my wife and parents use to contact me. I’m sure I’m not alone in this behaviour - I hate notifications and any workflow model based around them. Is my viewpoint very uncommon? Are notifications generally used and loved by users? Do app developers have good stats about this?
  - redbar0n 4y ago
    It's not an uncommon viewpoint. But the fact of the matter is that without notifications it is hard to build a habitual trigger loop to re-engage users (a lot of things just fall out of mind and sometimes you'd like a reminder or a notification of something special). If you are careful with what type of, how many, and how you send notifications, then not as many users will disable them.
  - jstummbillig 4y ago
    Thinking as a fellow notification disabler, and having no data, just intuition: People want their attention to be tapped. I am not exactly sure why that is (although I am sure that it can't be good) but notifications are a tap on peoples attention. Building certain apps without notifications seems like it would simply not be acceptable to must users. Most phone apps still vibrate or ring – that's basically a notification. I would go as far as saying its uniquely distracting notification is the primary feature of the phone app but, at the very least, a phone without one would be something very different. And since messengers basically compete with phone apps now, for most people that would probably not work.
trevcanhuman 4y ago
> No it doesn't. It will make zero difference I'm pretty sure it does, at least with purchases. PWAs won't need to pay for apple's app store 30% cut.
phreack 4y ago
I once made a chat app that had significant traction on Android, and many users wanted to try it on iPhone but there was no way to do so without web push, and it was fundamentally banned by the app store guidelines and without side load there were no alternatives. This is a game changer for those kinds of apps!
kristiandupont 4y ago
I don't know what the percentage of "native" apps that are really web views and/or javascript underneath, but am certain that it's a lot. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it's more than 50%.
elforce002 4y ago
This 100%. Amazon web app is awful. Same goes for any ecommerce pwa I've used on my phone.

redbar0n 4y ago

Things have changed a lot in the last few years. This is a React Native vs. Ionic React+Capacitor responsiveness demo: https://twitter.com/magnemg/status/1404073426193690634?s=20 https://twitter.com/magnemg/status/1404073426193690634?s=20 You can achieve 60 fps with webapps now: https://ionic.io/blog/ionic-vs-react-native-performance-comparison https://ionic.io/blog/ionic-vs-react-native-performance-comp... With the Shared Element Transitions API you even get smooth page transitions (even for MPA's with full page reload): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mv0_jsWhoE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mv0_jsWhoE

joenathanone 4y ago

I build a PWA currently in use by around 130 people, no one can tell its not native.

threeseed 4y ago
I assume you have a native app as well and have benchmarked both with users. Because when you compare native/PWA with mainstream apps the experience is significant.
- jasonlotito 4y ago
  > I assume you have a native app as well and have benchmarked both with users. Yes, I can speak for them. They compared their native implementation with the one that exists. The users enjoy using the web app compared to the current native app. Why? Because it doesn't exist. Because creating a native app doesn't solve the problem. Because when you say "native", do you mean iOS or Android? Or Mac? Or Windows? Or Linux? Or whatever else there is? Yes, eventually, there might be a desire to build out a native app if it's needed. But the assumption that everyone needs a native app is absurd. Not everything needs a native app, and can work just fine without. As for this persons users? Yes, they enjoy the PWA, because without it, the "native" app wouldn't work for some of them.
  - threeseed 4y ago
    If it’s a choice between PWA and no app then of course PWA has a use. But if you think it will upend the industry then that is frankly delusional. PWA apps are worse than native in every single way for the user. Great for developers. Terrible for users.
    - intrasight 4y ago
      Developers trying to satisfy their users are not trying to upend the industry. And as users can't tell, why is it terrible for users? All kinds of apps can suck and be user unfriendly. That's a different dimension than native vs web.
      - threeseed 4y ago
        Users can tell. That's the whole reason for why the last 15 years of trying web based apps have failed.
- joenathanone 4y ago
  Is isn't noticeable at all if the app is built correctly. My app is used by health care professionals to log their hours and patient charting. Everything is instant when clicked and the app also has limited offline functionality. It's snappier than most mainstream native apps. Everything is native HTML 5 & CSS with very minimal javascript to handle logic and validate inputs.

jstummbillig 4y ago

> And they never took off not because it lacks push notifications or some other minor feature. Actually, that is precisely why they didn't take off: Without push notifications a lot of mobile applications are simply not feasible. If something is not feasible, most people will have no reason to invest in ux. It's self-fulfilling. However, with push api, cache api, being installable (and maybe some additional apis that elude me right now), I don't see any specific thing that would not allow carefully crated web apps to have great ux on mobile.

laingc 4y ago
I am genuinely curious about this. I prefer native apps to web apps, but I have notifications disabled for every app I install except those that my wife and parents use to contact me. I’m sure I’m not alone in this behaviour - I hate notifications and any workflow model based around them. Is my viewpoint very uncommon? Are notifications generally used and loved by users? Do app developers have good stats about this?
- redbar0n 4y ago
  It's not an uncommon viewpoint. But the fact of the matter is that without notifications it is hard to build a habitual trigger loop to re-engage users (a lot of things just fall out of mind and sometimes you'd like a reminder or a notification of something special). If you are careful with what type of, how many, and how you send notifications, then not as many users will disable them.
- jstummbillig 4y ago
  Thinking as a fellow notification disabler, and having no data, just intuition: People want their attention to be tapped. I am not exactly sure why that is (although I am sure that it can't be good) but notifications are a tap on peoples attention. Building certain apps without notifications seems like it would simply not be acceptable to must users. Most phone apps still vibrate or ring – that's basically a notification. I would go as far as saying its uniquely distracting notification is the primary feature of the phone app but, at the very least, a phone without one would be something very different. And since messengers basically compete with phone apps now, for most people that would probably not work.

trevcanhuman 4y ago

> No it doesn't. It will make zero difference I'm pretty sure it does, at least with purchases. PWAs won't need to pay for apple's app store 30% cut.

phreack 4y ago

I once made a chat app that had significant traction on Android, and many users wanted to try it on iPhone but there was no way to do so without web push, and it was fundamentally banned by the app store guidelines and without side load there were no alternatives. This is a game changer for those kinds of apps!

kristiandupont 4y ago

I don't know what the percentage of "native" apps that are really web views and/or javascript underneath, but am certain that it's a lot. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it's more than 50%.

elforce002 4y ago

This 100%. Amazon web app is awful. Same goes for any ecommerce pwa I've used on my phone.