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> They weren't interested - they told me to contact West Midlands police. So I rang them. No, they were not going to investigate: "Don't you realize how many Po

> They weren't interested - they told me to contact West Midlands police. So I rang them. No, they were not going to investigate: "Don't you realize how many Porsches are stolen in this city every day?" Also, they said they can't just walk in and have a look around (I guess they need a warrant, which is fair enough; but then why not get a warrant?) I've seen/heard this numerous times. Cops really don't give a shit about theft unless it's from a business. But I wonder if you could just sue the homeowner for the bike in small claims court. Do you have something like that in your jurisdiction? I mean you can prove they're in possession of your property. Nothing criminal, just have a judge order them to at least compensate you for the bike.

denton-scratch 4y ago
> I mean you can prove they're in possession of your property. To be pedantic, I can only prove they're in possession of the GPS tracker. That cost about £250. Yes, we have small claims. I think it costs about £50. I'd love to have (partially) got my own back; but I was very much conscious that these people might not be very nice people, and they knew where I lived. I could have hired thieves to steal it back, I suppose; but I don't know any thieves that I trust (nor that I don't trust!)
- jimnotgym 4y ago
  IANAL but you don't have to prove 'beyond reasonable doubt' in civil cases, just balance of probability. If you fought this case I think you would have a very good chance of getting a judgement. Whether that gets you any actual cash is another matter.
- denton-scratch 4y ago
  On reflection, I guess I could have sued them for the value of the bike; it would have been a civil case, so it wouldn't have depended on proof, just on the balance of probabilities. I doubt they would have contested it; it would have been an easy win. But they might have paid me a visit and set fire to my flat.
  - ipaddr 4y ago
    Or you might have prevented them from murdering someone. The probably of them coming back and burning your house down come from television but in reality this is not a murder case where they are threatening you not to appear. This isn't so personal that the 250 dollars will cause them spend time/money on a payback plan. Judging by their car they make a lot more than that nightly and you will never see a dime of that court winning.
LorenPechtel 4y ago
And the homeowner is the occupant?? Probably not. Criminals like to move around. I do have a big problem with the police ignoring cases handed them on a sliver platter even if they are minor, though. Doing this makes it effectively legal to commit said crime.
- denton-scratch 4y ago
  > Doing this makes it effectively legal to commit said crime. Yeah. The same thing happens with bankster's frauds. The difference is that a fraud case is very costly to investigate and prosecute; in this case, as you put it, I gave it to them on a silver platter. And I'd bet that they'd have recovered dozens of expensive bikes if they'd raided it, and solved at least dozens of open cases.
  - prawn 4y ago
    AND limit future thefts by the same people, and likely dissuade future thieves.
    - Camillo 4y ago
      If you put the bike thieves in jail, sure. And when your e-bike gets stolen, you may well think you want them in jail. But the next week, the New York Times writes an article about how there are too many non-violent offenders in jail and the incarceration crisis is a national shame. Now the e-bike owner is outraged and wants the thief out of jail. It's not trivial to come up with a punishment that will deter the thieves without also deterring the voters from seeing it administered.
      - leoedin 4y ago
        I don't think it's even about putting them in jail for a long time. The current situation has basically zero downsides to stealing a bike. You take it, you sell it, you have cash. The police don't care, they won't even investigate. If the chances of getting caught for this sort of crime were non-zero, even if the repercussions were a heavy fine, it would hopefully make people think twice before getting involved in it.
dahart 4y ago
> Cops really don’t give a shit about theft unless it’s from a business. My only experience with police and bike theft is the opposite; they police were helpful and recovered my bike. When I first called them they even suggested that I make initial contact with the thief and they’d be there to support the sting, which surprised me a lot! I found the bike a couple of weeks after it was stolen when the thief posted it for sale online, and when I called the police they let me know that the phone number was associated with a “known operator”. I didn’t end up making direct contact with the thief, an undercover officer took care of it. Several officers joined, and they were all super happy to have helped. It was overall a positive and satisfying experience. This may be very locale-dependent, I’m in the western U.S., not Europe.
- maximinus_thrax 4y ago
  I'm also in the western, US (the PNW) and my bike was stolen a couple of years back. It had a sticker and a registration number from my apartment building, which they called and left their phone number saying they found the bike abandoned and want to return it. I called the number, and they told me to meet up somewhere in a relatively rough neighborhood. I told them I would love to meet up in front of a police precinct which they turned down, saying they don't have a car and can't get there (told them they can ride the bike to the precinct, and I can arrange an Uber to drive them back but unsurprisingly they said no). I called the Seattle PD and told them everything, asked if they can help me by sending someone at the meeting site. They pretty much burst out laughing, told me not to go as I will likely get robbed or worse, forget about the bike and move on with my life. (I did file a report for the stolen bike though). I ended up getting some money from my renter's insurance. The bike was worth slightly over $1000 when it was new (was stolen after about a year). I keep my bikes indoors now.
  - prawn 4y ago
    Isn't that incredible. It's almost "We can't go with you to that place and investigate a crime because a crime might happen!" I'm not from the US and I've only ever had positive interactions with police, but cases like this which would be low effort for them and have a useful impact on petty crime in their region, seem very frustrating.
ecf 4y ago
> unless it’s from a business To further clarify, unless it’s a business that makes routine donations to the police department. Police started out as private business protection for those who paid, mafia style, and they haven’t changed since then.
- convolvatron 4y ago
  in the US I have actually gotten police to respond the homeless issues when calling as a business. not 100%, but they often send someone out. have not paid them off yet. as a resident? if I call the non-emergency line they just laugh and tell me to move.
yodsanklai 4y ago
This is scandalous. I wonder if you could somehow sue the police for not doing their job, or report the guy who refused to investigate.
- maximinus_thrax 4y ago
  At least in the US, you can't: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_of_Castle_Rock_v._Gonzales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_of_Castle_Rock_v._Gonzale... Not sure about other jurisdictions.
- zdragnar 4y ago
  There seems to be some silly misconception that police sit around twiddling their thumbs doing their level best to ignore crime. The truth is there is far more crime being reported than they can possibly respond to, especially in places like Seattle (which has the highest per-capita rate of property crime overall in the nation, iirc). On top of that, police staffing levels are at historic lows in some cities- in Seattle, they're at a 30-year low. If someone isn't in immediate danger, and the situation isn't evolving, the item stolen is particularly mobile and difficult to identify (such as a commodity bike), and not worth a lot of money (cars worth much more are stolen every day) it's going to be way at the bottom of their priority list.
  - dclowd9901 4y ago
    Property crime is up everywhere. Nothing societally has changed, so I think the onus is on you to prove they aren’t just sitting there twiddling their thumbs. With their powerful unions and patterns of “blue flu”, the police don’t exactly have a great track record of response (not even going into the weeds of armed responses gone awry).
    - zdragnar 4y ago
      Here is some super trivial googling for you: https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/wa/seattle/crime https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/wa/seattle/crime Over 46k crimes (property and violent) 1200 officers funded, though I've seen other stats that there are only 940 active employed 800k 911 calls per year https://www.seattle.gov/police/about-us/about-the-department/department-fact-sheet https://www.seattle.gov/police/about-us/about-the-department... That's 3-ish 911 responses per day, assuming an average of one officer for every call. Add on top of that all of the other things happening, and you would need to be wilfully blind to believe they are sitting around with nothing better to do than look for a stolen bike.
icelancer 4y ago
>> Cops really don't give a shit about theft unless it's from a business. Have had my place of home and work both burglarized. The difference is that at work they show up, take tons of notes, interview you and your employees, and then ignore you. I vastly prefer the home burglary experience. At least they're honest about not caring. Both times I had 1080p footage with clear vision of the thieves and cars. Jack shit done about it. Rinse, repeat, and most people don't even report crimes anymore. Tada! Crime is now "going down."
- girvo 4y ago
  It’s worrying though. It’s part of the social contract, and I worry about vigilantism rising if cops not doing anything about the majority of crime that affects most normal people is ignored, and that gets worse.
  - icelancer 4y ago
    Completely agree with you. It's ruining statistical analysis of actual crime and it's developing serious apathy and nihilism in our population.
  - galangalalgol 4y ago
    It already is rising, with all the false positives and prejudice induced mistakes you would expect. A Kenyan I know said vigilantism there relies on setting up bait for thieves and having multiple members of the community lie in wait. The thief that takes the bait is caught red handed, beaten severely, and often doused in petrol and burned alive. I said I was sure that probably kept theft pretty low, and he replied it did not, no one ever thinks they will be caught.
    - KennyBlanken 4y ago
      Which is why it's more effective to provide proper social safety net programs, work to provide economic opportunity, treat the criminal justice system and detention as rehabilitation, not punishment - and at the very least not have systems that encourage further economic stratification and the concentration of wealth. US states with the death penalty have significantly higher murder rates than those without...

denton-scratch 4y ago

> I mean you can prove they're in possession of your property. To be pedantic, I can only prove they're in possession of the GPS tracker. That cost about £250. Yes, we have small claims. I think it costs about £50. I'd love to have (partially) got my own back; but I was very much conscious that these people might not be very nice people, and they knew where I lived. I could have hired thieves to steal it back, I suppose; but I don't know any thieves that I trust (nor that I don't trust!)

jimnotgym 4y ago
IANAL but you don't have to prove 'beyond reasonable doubt' in civil cases, just balance of probability. If you fought this case I think you would have a very good chance of getting a judgement. Whether that gets you any actual cash is another matter.
denton-scratch 4y ago
On reflection, I guess I could have sued them for the value of the bike; it would have been a civil case, so it wouldn't have depended on proof, just on the balance of probabilities. I doubt they would have contested it; it would have been an easy win. But they might have paid me a visit and set fire to my flat.
- ipaddr 4y ago
  Or you might have prevented them from murdering someone. The probably of them coming back and burning your house down come from television but in reality this is not a murder case where they are threatening you not to appear. This isn't so personal that the 250 dollars will cause them spend time/money on a payback plan. Judging by their car they make a lot more than that nightly and you will never see a dime of that court winning.

LorenPechtel 4y ago

And the homeowner is the occupant?? Probably not. Criminals like to move around. I do have a big problem with the police ignoring cases handed them on a sliver platter even if they are minor, though. Doing this makes it effectively legal to commit said crime.

denton-scratch 4y ago
> Doing this makes it effectively legal to commit said crime. Yeah. The same thing happens with bankster's frauds. The difference is that a fraud case is very costly to investigate and prosecute; in this case, as you put it, I gave it to them on a silver platter. And I'd bet that they'd have recovered dozens of expensive bikes if they'd raided it, and solved at least dozens of open cases.
- prawn 4y ago
  AND limit future thefts by the same people, and likely dissuade future thieves.
  - Camillo 4y ago
    If you put the bike thieves in jail, sure. And when your e-bike gets stolen, you may well think you want them in jail. But the next week, the New York Times writes an article about how there are too many non-violent offenders in jail and the incarceration crisis is a national shame. Now the e-bike owner is outraged and wants the thief out of jail. It's not trivial to come up with a punishment that will deter the thieves without also deterring the voters from seeing it administered.
    - leoedin 4y ago
      I don't think it's even about putting them in jail for a long time. The current situation has basically zero downsides to stealing a bike. You take it, you sell it, you have cash. The police don't care, they won't even investigate. If the chances of getting caught for this sort of crime were non-zero, even if the repercussions were a heavy fine, it would hopefully make people think twice before getting involved in it.

dahart 4y ago

> Cops really don’t give a shit about theft unless it’s from a business. My only experience with police and bike theft is the opposite; they police were helpful and recovered my bike. When I first called them they even suggested that I make initial contact with the thief and they’d be there to support the sting, which surprised me a lot! I found the bike a couple of weeks after it was stolen when the thief posted it for sale online, and when I called the police they let me know that the phone number was associated with a “known operator”. I didn’t end up making direct contact with the thief, an undercover officer took care of it. Several officers joined, and they were all super happy to have helped. It was overall a positive and satisfying experience. This may be very locale-dependent, I’m in the western U.S., not Europe.

maximinus_thrax 4y ago
I'm also in the western, US (the PNW) and my bike was stolen a couple of years back. It had a sticker and a registration number from my apartment building, which they called and left their phone number saying they found the bike abandoned and want to return it. I called the number, and they told me to meet up somewhere in a relatively rough neighborhood. I told them I would love to meet up in front of a police precinct which they turned down, saying they don't have a car and can't get there (told them they can ride the bike to the precinct, and I can arrange an Uber to drive them back but unsurprisingly they said no). I called the Seattle PD and told them everything, asked if they can help me by sending someone at the meeting site. They pretty much burst out laughing, told me not to go as I will likely get robbed or worse, forget about the bike and move on with my life. (I did file a report for the stolen bike though). I ended up getting some money from my renter's insurance. The bike was worth slightly over $1000 when it was new (was stolen after about a year). I keep my bikes indoors now.
- prawn 4y ago
  Isn't that incredible. It's almost "We can't go with you to that place and investigate a crime because a crime might happen!" I'm not from the US and I've only ever had positive interactions with police, but cases like this which would be low effort for them and have a useful impact on petty crime in their region, seem very frustrating.

ecf 4y ago

> unless it’s from a business To further clarify, unless it’s a business that makes routine donations to the police department. Police started out as private business protection for those who paid, mafia style, and they haven’t changed since then.

convolvatron 4y ago
in the US I have actually gotten police to respond the homeless issues when calling as a business. not 100%, but they often send someone out. have not paid them off yet. as a resident? if I call the non-emergency line they just laugh and tell me to move.

yodsanklai 4y ago

This is scandalous. I wonder if you could somehow sue the police for not doing their job, or report the guy who refused to investigate.

maximinus_thrax 4y ago
At least in the US, you can't: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_of_Castle_Rock_v._Gonzales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_of_Castle_Rock_v._Gonzale... Not sure about other jurisdictions.
zdragnar 4y ago
There seems to be some silly misconception that police sit around twiddling their thumbs doing their level best to ignore crime. The truth is there is far more crime being reported than they can possibly respond to, especially in places like Seattle (which has the highest per-capita rate of property crime overall in the nation, iirc). On top of that, police staffing levels are at historic lows in some cities- in Seattle, they're at a 30-year low. If someone isn't in immediate danger, and the situation isn't evolving, the item stolen is particularly mobile and difficult to identify (such as a commodity bike), and not worth a lot of money (cars worth much more are stolen every day) it's going to be way at the bottom of their priority list.
- dclowd9901 4y ago
  Property crime is up everywhere. Nothing societally has changed, so I think the onus is on you to prove they aren’t just sitting there twiddling their thumbs. With their powerful unions and patterns of “blue flu”, the police don’t exactly have a great track record of response (not even going into the weeds of armed responses gone awry).
  - zdragnar 4y ago
    Here is some super trivial googling for you: https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/wa/seattle/crime https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/wa/seattle/crime Over 46k crimes (property and violent) 1200 officers funded, though I've seen other stats that there are only 940 active employed 800k 911 calls per year https://www.seattle.gov/police/about-us/about-the-department/department-fact-sheet https://www.seattle.gov/police/about-us/about-the-department... That's 3-ish 911 responses per day, assuming an average of one officer for every call. Add on top of that all of the other things happening, and you would need to be wilfully blind to believe they are sitting around with nothing better to do than look for a stolen bike.

icelancer 4y ago

>> Cops really don't give a shit about theft unless it's from a business. Have had my place of home and work both burglarized. The difference is that at work they show up, take tons of notes, interview you and your employees, and then ignore you. I vastly prefer the home burglary experience. At least they're honest about not caring. Both times I had 1080p footage with clear vision of the thieves and cars. Jack shit done about it. Rinse, repeat, and most people don't even report crimes anymore. Tada! Crime is now "going down."

girvo 4y ago
It’s worrying though. It’s part of the social contract, and I worry about vigilantism rising if cops not doing anything about the majority of crime that affects most normal people is ignored, and that gets worse.
- icelancer 4y ago
  Completely agree with you. It's ruining statistical analysis of actual crime and it's developing serious apathy and nihilism in our population.
- galangalalgol 4y ago
  It already is rising, with all the false positives and prejudice induced mistakes you would expect. A Kenyan I know said vigilantism there relies on setting up bait for thieves and having multiple members of the community lie in wait. The thief that takes the bait is caught red handed, beaten severely, and often doused in petrol and burned alive. I said I was sure that probably kept theft pretty low, and he replied it did not, no one ever thinks they will be caught.
  - KennyBlanken 4y ago
    Which is why it's more effective to provide proper social safety net programs, work to provide economic opportunity, treat the criminal justice system and detention as rehabilitation, not punishment - and at the very least not have systems that encourage further economic stratification and the concentration of wealth. US states with the death penalty have significantly higher murder rates than those without...