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> 1) The money is not actually 'stolen' this is an extreme exaggeration it's still in PayPal and just held for 180 days. Holy Gaslighting Batman, this is on an

> 1) The money is not actually 'stolen' this is an extreme exaggeration it's still in PayPal and just held for 180 days. Holy Gaslighting Batman, this is on another level. Imagine what you'd think if somebody grabbed something you needed and while he was running down the street, told you that it's not stolen because he pinky swears to give it back in half a year. The belief that it might be returned later is immaterial to the concept of theft. If you can't do what you want with your own property, is it not stolen? You keep talking about being against criminals, but are willfully ignoring a theft that's right in front of you. > 2) You mean like criminals, drug dealers? As I can only see this group being on 'the margins of society' being empowered by crypto. Just because one system is imperfect, does not mean you replace it with a completely worse system that doesn't work for anybody. Whenever governments want to enact something dystopian, they always justify it by claiming that it's going to fight the worst person they can think of to get popular sentiment on their side: like terrorists and murderers. Those kinds of criminals are very easy to spot. But what happens when governments declare it a crime to speak out against the government?Those people are also labeled criminals, and have their funding seized. This isn't a theoretical discussion: this happens every time authoritarians take power. They of course seize any funds from protestors to limit any political opposition. This isn't even limited to some 3rd world countries, but also happens in prosperous Western countries.

colesantiago 4y ago
You're the only person in this thread strawmanning and talking about the funds being 'stolen' which is an exaggeration and is completely false. The correct term that PayPal has done is that they froze the account and it's held for 180 days. So it isn't really theft at all if PayPal still holds the funds. If the funds are completely out of PayPal's hands and not in your account, then it is stolen. In fact, should we compare to crypto sector, once you money is stolen or sent to the wrong address, there is NOBODY you can ask to get your money back, ever. This is what I mean by you trying to augment or replace the current financial system with an even worse completely libertarian and utopianist system and whatever you say on 'dystopian governments' doesn't change this fact. Even if we take your 'dystopian governments' view, when they control the crypto exchanges, there will be no way you can swap or or anyone to accept your worthless magic beans to fiat when this will be made illegal.
- logicalmonster 4y ago
  > You're the only person in this thread strawmanning and talking about the funds being 'stolen' which is an exaggeration and is completely false. We apparently have an irreconcilable disagreement about the nature of theft and I don't think there's any common ground to discuss this further. I sincerely hope you never get stolen from in this manner. If some mega-corporation locked up your needed funds for 180 days though, I doubt that you'd be contorting yourself trying to justify why it's not actually theft. > Even if we take your 'dystopian governments' view, when they control the crypto exchanges, there will be no way you can swap or or anyone to accept your worthless magic beans to fiat when this will be made illegal. 1) Who said anything about trading crypto for fiat? The purpose of money is to trade for goods and services. If crypto exchanges are shut down, you can still trade directly with other people. (This I think is what puts self-righteous authoritarians in a tizzy: there's no way to perfectly control other people with crypto.) 2) I'm not sure what magic beans you're referring to. Are you referring to the magic beans that are backed up by nothing and which are printed indefinitely?
  - colesantiago 4y ago
    Who do you hold accountable when your crypto funds get lost? Who do you go to when your crypto funds go to the wrong address? Or more commonly, Who do you go to when your crypto funds are drained from your wallet? We both know you cannot go to anybody ever in any situation and is the reason why crypto is a failure especially as a currency, payments and for everything else. At least we know the funds are frozen and held by PayPal (which we can hold accountable) and not some shady exchange that went offline, or some random person's wallet address. So once again, you have proposed a monumentally worse system that nobody or any business wants to use or deal with in the real world, and the erratic crypto volatility wouldn't help the situation either should such a bad situation happen. > If crypto exchanges are shut down, you can still trade directly with other people. Many have tried this with crypto and this has completely failed as unrealistic at any scale. The government won't accept your crypto / magic beans as a way to pay your taxes. They won't accept it now, and they won't accept it when the crypto exchanges are shutdown.

colesantiago 4y ago

You're the only person in this thread strawmanning and talking about the funds being 'stolen' which is an exaggeration and is completely false. The correct term that PayPal has done is that they froze the account and it's held for 180 days. So it isn't really theft at all if PayPal still holds the funds. If the funds are completely out of PayPal's hands and not in your account, then it is stolen. In fact, should we compare to crypto sector, once you money is stolen or sent to the wrong address, there is NOBODY you can ask to get your money back, ever. This is what I mean by you trying to augment or replace the current financial system with an even worse completely libertarian and utopianist system and whatever you say on 'dystopian governments' doesn't change this fact. Even if we take your 'dystopian governments' view, when they control the crypto exchanges, there will be no way you can swap or or anyone to accept your worthless magic beans to fiat when this will be made illegal.

logicalmonster 4y ago
> You're the only person in this thread strawmanning and talking about the funds being 'stolen' which is an exaggeration and is completely false. We apparently have an irreconcilable disagreement about the nature of theft and I don't think there's any common ground to discuss this further. I sincerely hope you never get stolen from in this manner. If some mega-corporation locked up your needed funds for 180 days though, I doubt that you'd be contorting yourself trying to justify why it's not actually theft. > Even if we take your 'dystopian governments' view, when they control the crypto exchanges, there will be no way you can swap or or anyone to accept your worthless magic beans to fiat when this will be made illegal. 1) Who said anything about trading crypto for fiat? The purpose of money is to trade for goods and services. If crypto exchanges are shut down, you can still trade directly with other people. (This I think is what puts self-righteous authoritarians in a tizzy: there's no way to perfectly control other people with crypto.) 2) I'm not sure what magic beans you're referring to. Are you referring to the magic beans that are backed up by nothing and which are printed indefinitely?
- colesantiago 4y ago
  Who do you hold accountable when your crypto funds get lost? Who do you go to when your crypto funds go to the wrong address? Or more commonly, Who do you go to when your crypto funds are drained from your wallet? We both know you cannot go to anybody ever in any situation and is the reason why crypto is a failure especially as a currency, payments and for everything else. At least we know the funds are frozen and held by PayPal (which we can hold accountable) and not some shady exchange that went offline, or some random person's wallet address. So once again, you have proposed a monumentally worse system that nobody or any business wants to use or deal with in the real world, and the erratic crypto volatility wouldn't help the situation either should such a bad situation happen. > If crypto exchanges are shut down, you can still trade directly with other people. Many have tried this with crypto and this has completely failed as unrealistic at any scale. The government won't accept your crypto / magic beans as a way to pay your taxes. They won't accept it now, and they won't accept it when the crypto exchanges are shutdown.