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Recall implies something being returned. This should be called a mandatory software patch, or something like that. The problem is Tesla owners repeatedly see "

Recall implies something being returned. This should be called a mandatory software patch, or something like that. The problem is Tesla owners repeatedly see "recall" to mean "software update", so this might lead to a lot of confusion if a physical recall is actually required in the future.

sixQuarks 4y ago
I agree. It’s like crying wolf, eventually you start ignoring it
- connicpu 4y ago
  Laypeople have an incorrect perception of what a recall actually means, especially when it comes to vehicles. The most important effect that comes along with an official vehicle recall is that the manufacturer has to fix the issue for you for free, or otherwise compensate you in some way for reduced functionality you may have paid for.
  - mcguire 4y ago
    Well, that and the manufacturer has to notify owners of the recall, which is (or should be) tracked by the vehicle's VIN. https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls
- pengaru 4y ago
  > It’s like crying wolf, eventually you start ignoring it The problem here lies in having a manufacturer shipping an unfinished product then relying on an endless stream of recalls to finish developing your vehicle. These are supposed to be exceptional events. If they've become so frequent you're ignoring them, don't shoot the messenger.
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  Recalls happen in other product spaces all the time, and they often have "fixes" that say "stop using our product and throw it away". That's still a recall. The word "recall" in relation to this regulation is simply a term for "something is broken in a way that a merchant should not have sold"
sentientslug 4y ago
This is most likely a legislative issue with NHTSA, I don't think they have a mechanism by which they can enforce a software update since the concept didn't exist when recalls were first implemented.
- reilly3000 4y ago
  This is the correct answer. The question is, how do we get better at regulating reality faster?
  - connicpu 4y ago
    Electing congresspeople who actually stay on top of the expert consensus in various regulated fields is the only way the frameworks themselves can be improved.
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    Recalls about car software, and about updating car software, have existed since shortly after OBDII was a thing.
  - tsgagnon 4y ago
    This is the correct answer. The question is, how do we get better at regulating reality faster? I don't think "Use words that put a more positive spin for Tesla PR" is something regulators should be working faster on.
    - jjk166 4y ago
      Inaccuracy is inaccuracy no matter in which direction. If an outdated law made it easier for Tesla PR to spin something in a positive light, would you consider that an issue?
      - outworlder 4y ago
        There's no inaccuracy here. You are arguing about an implementation detail.
duncan-donuts 4y ago
Surely a hardware recall would specifically tell you to go to a dealer, right? I’m not sure it’s really confusing. The specific thing here is that these are mandatory things that are tracked by vehicle.
pclmulqdq 4y ago
My Honda had 2 recalls on it recently: one was a software update and the other was over the fact that a few of the cables on the audio system were slightly too short. This sounds like the same thing other than the fact that I had to pop over to the dealership to do them. Even with the cable replacement, in and out in an hour with a nice lounge to sit in.
- diebeforei485 4y ago
  If the software update has to be done physically at a dealer location, that's a recall. The scenario in this article is an over-the-air update.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    I wasn't told about either of these recalls, though. I went in because the audio was clicking, and they told me they had 2 recalls out on my car, including for the audio issue, and that it was a quick fix. Normally, it happens with an oil change.
  - hunter2_ 4y ago
    I just looked it up. The relevant definition of recall is to request returning a product. If it's possible to buy a software license online and then return it online after deciding you no longer want it (i.e., a non-physical return), then it stands to reason that Tesla can request that you return the defective software OTA and receive replacement software OTA, and that would be a recall. The fact that you are forced into returning the defective software by virtue of not having the opportunity to block the return request is a fairly minor detail.
  - cardiffspaceman 4y ago
    While we're talking about semantics, the auto industry seems to have a thing called "Technical service bulletin" which is a piece of actionable knowledge. If it applies to you, you act on it. You would probably have to go to the shop to get the TSB considered and applied. I don't think it has any regulatory weight, except as an input to deciding if a recall is a good idea.
BoorishBears 4y ago
It's hilarious watching Tesla owners and Elon complain about the wording when it's Tesla's fault this is a recall. If Tesla had willingly walked this back, it'd be a software update, or a beta delay, or whatever they wanted to call it. What laypeople don't realize is that this is being called a recall because the NHTSA pushed them into it: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V085-3451.PDF https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V085-3451.PDF - FSD has been a cartoonish display for the better part of a year now, it wasn't until last month that the NHTSA actually pushed on them to do a recall, and from there they "disagreed with the NHTSA but submitted a recall"... which is code for "submitted the recall NHTSA forced on them to submit" Elon knows better, but he knows he can weaponize people's lack of familiarity with this space and inspire outrage at the "big bad overreaching government"
QuercusMax 4y ago
I work in the medical device space, and we will often have "recalls", which usually result in a software patch. Recall != return.
- diebeforei485 4y ago
  Are these delivered directly to the device and installed overnight automatically (like an iPhone iOS update) or do they have to be hooked up to a computer to install the software update?
  - joshuahaglund 4y ago
    Recall is the word we use when a defect was found and must be repaired or retrofit. The actual process of repair could involve customer action or not. Teslas are basically digitally tethered to the dealer, so they can be "recalled" anytime (without your approval, fwiw), but it doesn't make the word not apply.
  - buffington 4y ago
    If Tesla replaced the actual computer that runs the software that they're recalling, would you consider that a recall? What if there was no actual physical fault with the computer, but it just had firmware flashed to a chip that couldn't be reflashed? I'm looking at a piece of mail right now that's an official recall notice for a different make/model of car I own. The issue? Improperly adjusted steering components. The company is offering to make the correct adjustments for free. Nothing is being replaced. Whether the recall is to replace a poorly designed physical component, or to make an adjustment, or to apply a software update doesn't make a difference to regulators. A recall is a legal process that's designed to encourage manufacturers to fix safety issues while also limiting their liability. Companies avoid recalls if they can because it's costly, time consuming, and isn't good PR. But it's worth it if the issue is bad enough that it risks a class action lawsuit, or individual lawsuits, and most desirable when someone like the US government is demanding a recall or risk legal consequences. When a company issues a recall, they make their best effort to notify consumers of the issue, provide with clear descriptions of how consumers can have the issue fixed, and make it clear that it will be paid for by the manufacturer. In return, the manufacturer is granted legal protections that drop their risk of being sued to nearly zero.
asdff 4y ago
Recall should just mean affected vehicles must have the fix. What component of the vehicle is affected or how it is supposed to be fixed should be irrelevant, something is defective and the vehicles should probably not be used until that's sorted.
zitterbewegung 4y ago
We should probably go beyond the verbiage of recall but right now since it is removing a feature I think that recall is appropriate. A better verbiage might be safety reversion .
- buffington 4y ago
  The use of the word "recall" isn't because someone just felt like using it. It's an official legal process, followed to limit the manufacturer's liability. Whether it's a "good" word or "bad" word is irrelevant. It describes a very rigid and official legal process.
  - brewdad 4y ago
    Exactly. I had a "recall" at one point where the manufacturer had a typo on a label in the engine compartment. The fix entailed receiving a new sticker in the mail and applying it over the old one. To this day, I can look up my vehicle on the NTSB site and see that that sticker was delivered to me. If I had chosen not to actually apply it, the dealer would have been expected to do so the next time my car was in for service.
- caf 4y ago
  I don't think this is removing a feature, the recall notices says: The remedy OTA software update will improve how FSD Beta negotiates certain driving maneuvers during the conditions described above, whereas a software release without the remedy does not contain the improvements.
mrguyorama 4y ago
"Recalls" almost never involve being returned. There's a recall out on my car's water pump (Thanks a lot VW) and no part of it involves sending my car back, or even interacting with VW or a dealer. It's just something I'm supposed to keep in mind over its life and various maintenance in the shop. Other cars get "recalls" all the time that amount to updating the software in the ECU or TCU. Tesla is simply being treated like everyone else. Hell, even in food, a "recall" usually means "throw it away" not return it.
clnq 4y ago
It seems to me that calling it a "recall" emphasises the severity of the problem, which might make it easier to argue that a lot is being done for customer safety to the interested authorities. But I don't think Tesla wants this to be seen more than an OTA update from the perspective of their customers (at least those who ignore Tesla news). I had a VW car that was "recalled" shortly following the emissions scandal. The dealership asked me to come in for a free software update related to emissions. So you can say it's a "recall" to the lawmakers but call it a "free software update" to the user.
- brandonagr2 4y ago
  There is a big difference between taking a car to a dealership for them to apply an update, and the car updating itself overnight as it sits in the garage with no action required by the owner.
- dmix 4y ago
  The industry needs to come up with a new related term like "Software Recall" Recalling the hardware is a drastically more difficult request to impose on customers and financially/logistically for the car maker. That's a disporportate response just to highlight importance of an OTA update.
  - nerdawson 4y ago
    Mandatory Software Update?
  - dingle_thunk 4y ago
    Recall is just the wrong word for what this is.
    - gxc33 4y ago
      'full self driving' is an even more incorrect term, then, if you want to be pedantic. if the car mfg takes zero liability/accountability, then it is zero self-driving. you can, in fact, 'recall' software. this is semantically accurate description of what is happening.
now__what 4y ago
In auto recalls, "recall" more generally implies something being repaired than returned, IME
- buffington 4y ago
  It implies neither. A recall is a legal process only. Whether the recall repairs, replaces, adjusts something doesn't matter. Whether a fix is applied as software, or labor, or replacement parts doesn't matter. Whether a customer needs to do something or not doesn't matter. A recall simply says: as a manufacturer, working with government authorities, while taking specific prescribed steps to communicate and correct an issue at the cost of the manufacturer, the manufacturer is then immune from lawsuits that could arise were they to ignore the issue.
- tshaddox 4y ago
  Yeah, but the reason why they used the word "recall" is that "recall" was already a word that means to officially demand that something (or someone) be returned to a previous location. Of course, before over the air software updates, essentially anything on an automobile that needed to be replaced/repaired/modified would need to be returned to a dealer/mechanic to do so. So now it sounds a little weird to some people to refer to an over the air software update as a recall.
eecc 4y ago
Well in computing the term “Security Update” is in use, why not call this a “Safety Update”.
thomaskcr 4y ago
I like that we're arguing over the word "recall" being an issue when the system it applies to is called "full self driving". I think calling a level 2 driver assistance system "full self driving" is a much bigger inaccuracy.
- futuroptimist 4y ago
  To play devil's advocate, it's only a misleading label when the word "Beta" is omitted.
  - insanitybit 4y ago
    Not really. If someone says "Full self driving beta" I'm thinking "The goal is full self driving, the current approach should deliver full self driving, beta means that it requires some tweaks and testing".
    - Natsu 4y ago
      > I'm thinking "The goal is full self driving, the current approach should deliver full self driving, beta means that it requires some tweaks and testing". And that "bugs" involve accidents.
      - KMnO4 4y ago
        Reminds me of an old joke about Ford vs Microsoft. We seem to have come full circle. Abridged version: > At a computer expo, Bill Gates compared the computer industry with the auto industry and stated, 'If Ford had kept up with technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25 cars that got 1,000 miles to the gallon.' > In response to Bill's comments, Ford issued a press release stating: > “Sure, but would you want to drive a car that for no reason whatsoever would crash twice a day?” https://www.chevyhhr.net/forums/lounge-10/microsoft-vs-ford-hilarious-42159/ https://www.chevyhhr.net/forums/lounge-10/microsoft-vs-ford-...
    - yazzku 4y ago
      Nobody outside of tech understands it this way. "Full Self-Driving Beta" is a marketing stunt that borders on fraud. These cars can't drive themselves for shit, they're not even in beta.
eternityforest 4y ago
The software isn't returned but it is destroyed and replaced. In a world where the behavior of the things we own is driven by software, it's pretty much just the same as if you recalled and replaced faulty gas tanks.
cyanydeez 4y ago
The software is being returned. Your argument seems to be about protecting Tesla's reputation
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
kube-system 4y ago
Software recalls are nothing new. This particular use of the word “recall” refers to the legal process used by regulators to mandate a fix to a product.
nerdix 4y ago
Samsung just recently had a recall on some recent model top loading washing machines due to fire hazard. The fix? A software update. https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2023/Samsung-Recalls-Top-Load-Washing-Machines-Due-to-Fire-Hazard-Software-Repair-Available https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2023/Samsung-Recalls-Top-Load-W...
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  It's seems that it's only not a recall when Tesla does it, because Tesla invented software updates.
jjav 4y ago
> Recall implies something being returned. That's where the word came from, that's true. But a legal framework has built up around the concept over the decades which isn't dependent on you having to drive the car to the dealer, all of which still applies, so the word is still used.
- diebeforei485 4y ago
  Over-the-air software updates haven't really been a thing until Tesla (previous cars that required software updates still required visiting a dealer or service center) so what we have here is an outdated legal framework.
  - jjav 4y ago
    It's not outdated. It's simply that the word recall in the context of cars has a specific legal meaning which isn't entirely the same as the conversational english usage of the same word. A defect that is subject to a recall, for example, is tracked as part of the car history. When considering buying a used car, you can see whether that repair has been made yet or not. The means of how that repair is delivered is inconsequential.

sixQuarks 4y ago

I agree. It’s like crying wolf, eventually you start ignoring it

connicpu 4y ago
Laypeople have an incorrect perception of what a recall actually means, especially when it comes to vehicles. The most important effect that comes along with an official vehicle recall is that the manufacturer has to fix the issue for you for free, or otherwise compensate you in some way for reduced functionality you may have paid for.
- mcguire 4y ago
  Well, that and the manufacturer has to notify owners of the recall, which is (or should be) tracked by the vehicle's VIN. https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls
pengaru 4y ago
> It’s like crying wolf, eventually you start ignoring it The problem here lies in having a manufacturer shipping an unfinished product then relying on an endless stream of recalls to finish developing your vehicle. These are supposed to be exceptional events. If they've become so frequent you're ignoring them, don't shoot the messenger.
mrguyorama 4y ago
Recalls happen in other product spaces all the time, and they often have "fixes" that say "stop using our product and throw it away". That's still a recall. The word "recall" in relation to this regulation is simply a term for "something is broken in a way that a merchant should not have sold"

sentientslug 4y ago

This is most likely a legislative issue with NHTSA, I don't think they have a mechanism by which they can enforce a software update since the concept didn't exist when recalls were first implemented.

reilly3000 4y ago
This is the correct answer. The question is, how do we get better at regulating reality faster?
- connicpu 4y ago
  Electing congresspeople who actually stay on top of the expert consensus in various regulated fields is the only way the frameworks themselves can be improved.
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  Recalls about car software, and about updating car software, have existed since shortly after OBDII was a thing.
- tsgagnon 4y ago
  This is the correct answer. The question is, how do we get better at regulating reality faster? I don't think "Use words that put a more positive spin for Tesla PR" is something regulators should be working faster on.
  - jjk166 4y ago
    Inaccuracy is inaccuracy no matter in which direction. If an outdated law made it easier for Tesla PR to spin something in a positive light, would you consider that an issue?
    - outworlder 4y ago
      There's no inaccuracy here. You are arguing about an implementation detail.

duncan-donuts 4y ago

Surely a hardware recall would specifically tell you to go to a dealer, right? I’m not sure it’s really confusing. The specific thing here is that these are mandatory things that are tracked by vehicle.

pclmulqdq 4y ago

My Honda had 2 recalls on it recently: one was a software update and the other was over the fact that a few of the cables on the audio system were slightly too short. This sounds like the same thing other than the fact that I had to pop over to the dealership to do them. Even with the cable replacement, in and out in an hour with a nice lounge to sit in.

diebeforei485 4y ago
If the software update has to be done physically at a dealer location, that's a recall. The scenario in this article is an over-the-air update.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  I wasn't told about either of these recalls, though. I went in because the audio was clicking, and they told me they had 2 recalls out on my car, including for the audio issue, and that it was a quick fix. Normally, it happens with an oil change.
- hunter2_ 4y ago
  I just looked it up. The relevant definition of recall is to request returning a product. If it's possible to buy a software license online and then return it online after deciding you no longer want it (i.e., a non-physical return), then it stands to reason that Tesla can request that you return the defective software OTA and receive replacement software OTA, and that would be a recall. The fact that you are forced into returning the defective software by virtue of not having the opportunity to block the return request is a fairly minor detail.
- cardiffspaceman 4y ago
  While we're talking about semantics, the auto industry seems to have a thing called "Technical service bulletin" which is a piece of actionable knowledge. If it applies to you, you act on it. You would probably have to go to the shop to get the TSB considered and applied. I don't think it has any regulatory weight, except as an input to deciding if a recall is a good idea.

BoorishBears 4y ago

It's hilarious watching Tesla owners and Elon complain about the wording when it's Tesla's fault this is a recall. If Tesla had willingly walked this back, it'd be a software update, or a beta delay, or whatever they wanted to call it. What laypeople don't realize is that this is being called a recall because the NHTSA pushed them into it: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V085-3451.PDF https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V085-3451.PDF - FSD has been a cartoonish display for the better part of a year now, it wasn't until last month that the NHTSA actually pushed on them to do a recall, and from there they "disagreed with the NHTSA but submitted a recall"... which is code for "submitted the recall NHTSA forced on them to submit" Elon knows better, but he knows he can weaponize people's lack of familiarity with this space and inspire outrage at the "big bad overreaching government"

QuercusMax 4y ago

I work in the medical device space, and we will often have "recalls", which usually result in a software patch. Recall != return.

diebeforei485 4y ago
Are these delivered directly to the device and installed overnight automatically (like an iPhone iOS update) or do they have to be hooked up to a computer to install the software update?
- joshuahaglund 4y ago
  Recall is the word we use when a defect was found and must be repaired or retrofit. The actual process of repair could involve customer action or not. Teslas are basically digitally tethered to the dealer, so they can be "recalled" anytime (without your approval, fwiw), but it doesn't make the word not apply.
- buffington 4y ago
  If Tesla replaced the actual computer that runs the software that they're recalling, would you consider that a recall? What if there was no actual physical fault with the computer, but it just had firmware flashed to a chip that couldn't be reflashed? I'm looking at a piece of mail right now that's an official recall notice for a different make/model of car I own. The issue? Improperly adjusted steering components. The company is offering to make the correct adjustments for free. Nothing is being replaced. Whether the recall is to replace a poorly designed physical component, or to make an adjustment, or to apply a software update doesn't make a difference to regulators. A recall is a legal process that's designed to encourage manufacturers to fix safety issues while also limiting their liability. Companies avoid recalls if they can because it's costly, time consuming, and isn't good PR. But it's worth it if the issue is bad enough that it risks a class action lawsuit, or individual lawsuits, and most desirable when someone like the US government is demanding a recall or risk legal consequences. When a company issues a recall, they make their best effort to notify consumers of the issue, provide with clear descriptions of how consumers can have the issue fixed, and make it clear that it will be paid for by the manufacturer. In return, the manufacturer is granted legal protections that drop their risk of being sued to nearly zero.

asdff 4y ago

Recall should just mean affected vehicles must have the fix. What component of the vehicle is affected or how it is supposed to be fixed should be irrelevant, something is defective and the vehicles should probably not be used until that's sorted.

zitterbewegung 4y ago

We should probably go beyond the verbiage of recall but right now since it is removing a feature I think that recall is appropriate. A better verbiage might be safety reversion .

buffington 4y ago
The use of the word "recall" isn't because someone just felt like using it. It's an official legal process, followed to limit the manufacturer's liability. Whether it's a "good" word or "bad" word is irrelevant. It describes a very rigid and official legal process.
- brewdad 4y ago
  Exactly. I had a "recall" at one point where the manufacturer had a typo on a label in the engine compartment. The fix entailed receiving a new sticker in the mail and applying it over the old one. To this day, I can look up my vehicle on the NTSB site and see that that sticker was delivered to me. If I had chosen not to actually apply it, the dealer would have been expected to do so the next time my car was in for service.
caf 4y ago
I don't think this is removing a feature, the recall notices says: The remedy OTA software update will improve how FSD Beta negotiates certain driving maneuvers during the conditions described above, whereas a software release without the remedy does not contain the improvements.

mrguyorama 4y ago

"Recalls" almost never involve being returned. There's a recall out on my car's water pump (Thanks a lot VW) and no part of it involves sending my car back, or even interacting with VW or a dealer. It's just something I'm supposed to keep in mind over its life and various maintenance in the shop. Other cars get "recalls" all the time that amount to updating the software in the ECU or TCU. Tesla is simply being treated like everyone else. Hell, even in food, a "recall" usually means "throw it away" not return it.

clnq 4y ago

It seems to me that calling it a "recall" emphasises the severity of the problem, which might make it easier to argue that a lot is being done for customer safety to the interested authorities. But I don't think Tesla wants this to be seen more than an OTA update from the perspective of their customers (at least those who ignore Tesla news). I had a VW car that was "recalled" shortly following the emissions scandal. The dealership asked me to come in for a free software update related to emissions. So you can say it's a "recall" to the lawmakers but call it a "free software update" to the user.

brandonagr2 4y ago
There is a big difference between taking a car to a dealership for them to apply an update, and the car updating itself overnight as it sits in the garage with no action required by the owner.
dmix 4y ago
The industry needs to come up with a new related term like "Software Recall" Recalling the hardware is a drastically more difficult request to impose on customers and financially/logistically for the car maker. That's a disporportate response just to highlight importance of an OTA update.
- nerdawson 4y ago
  Mandatory Software Update?
- dingle_thunk 4y ago
  Recall is just the wrong word for what this is.
  - gxc33 4y ago
    'full self driving' is an even more incorrect term, then, if you want to be pedantic. if the car mfg takes zero liability/accountability, then it is zero self-driving. you can, in fact, 'recall' software. this is semantically accurate description of what is happening.

now__what 4y ago

In auto recalls, "recall" more generally implies something being repaired than returned, IME

buffington 4y ago
It implies neither. A recall is a legal process only. Whether the recall repairs, replaces, adjusts something doesn't matter. Whether a fix is applied as software, or labor, or replacement parts doesn't matter. Whether a customer needs to do something or not doesn't matter. A recall simply says: as a manufacturer, working with government authorities, while taking specific prescribed steps to communicate and correct an issue at the cost of the manufacturer, the manufacturer is then immune from lawsuits that could arise were they to ignore the issue.
tshaddox 4y ago
Yeah, but the reason why they used the word "recall" is that "recall" was already a word that means to officially demand that something (or someone) be returned to a previous location. Of course, before over the air software updates, essentially anything on an automobile that needed to be replaced/repaired/modified would need to be returned to a dealer/mechanic to do so. So now it sounds a little weird to some people to refer to an over the air software update as a recall.

eecc 4y ago

Well in computing the term “Security Update” is in use, why not call this a “Safety Update”.

thomaskcr 4y ago

I like that we're arguing over the word "recall" being an issue when the system it applies to is called "full self driving". I think calling a level 2 driver assistance system "full self driving" is a much bigger inaccuracy.

futuroptimist 4y ago
To play devil's advocate, it's only a misleading label when the word "Beta" is omitted.
- insanitybit 4y ago
  Not really. If someone says "Full self driving beta" I'm thinking "The goal is full self driving, the current approach should deliver full self driving, beta means that it requires some tweaks and testing".
  - Natsu 4y ago
    > I'm thinking "The goal is full self driving, the current approach should deliver full self driving, beta means that it requires some tweaks and testing". And that "bugs" involve accidents.
    - KMnO4 4y ago
      Reminds me of an old joke about Ford vs Microsoft. We seem to have come full circle. Abridged version: > At a computer expo, Bill Gates compared the computer industry with the auto industry and stated, 'If Ford had kept up with technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25 cars that got 1,000 miles to the gallon.' > In response to Bill's comments, Ford issued a press release stating: > “Sure, but would you want to drive a car that for no reason whatsoever would crash twice a day?” https://www.chevyhhr.net/forums/lounge-10/microsoft-vs-ford-hilarious-42159/ https://www.chevyhhr.net/forums/lounge-10/microsoft-vs-ford-...
  - yazzku 4y ago
    Nobody outside of tech understands it this way. "Full Self-Driving Beta" is a marketing stunt that borders on fraud. These cars can't drive themselves for shit, they're not even in beta.

eternityforest 4y ago

The software isn't returned but it is destroyed and replaced. In a world where the behavior of the things we own is driven by software, it's pretty much just the same as if you recalled and replaced faulty gas tanks.

cyanydeez 4y ago

The software is being returned. Your argument seems to be about protecting Tesla's reputation

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

kube-system 4y ago

Software recalls are nothing new. This particular use of the word “recall” refers to the legal process used by regulators to mandate a fix to a product.

nerdix 4y ago

Samsung just recently had a recall on some recent model top loading washing machines due to fire hazard. The fix? A software update. https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2023/Samsung-Recalls-Top-Load-Washing-Machines-Due-to-Fire-Hazard-Software-Repair-Available https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2023/Samsung-Recalls-Top-Load-W...

heavyset_go 4y ago
It's seems that it's only not a recall when Tesla does it, because Tesla invented software updates.

jjav 4y ago

> Recall implies something being returned. That's where the word came from, that's true. But a legal framework has built up around the concept over the decades which isn't dependent on you having to drive the car to the dealer, all of which still applies, so the word is still used.

diebeforei485 4y ago
Over-the-air software updates haven't really been a thing until Tesla (previous cars that required software updates still required visiting a dealer or service center) so what we have here is an outdated legal framework.
- jjav 4y ago
  It's not outdated. It's simply that the word recall in the context of cars has a specific legal meaning which isn't entirely the same as the conversational english usage of the same word. A defect that is subject to a recall, for example, is tracked as part of the car history. When considering buying a used car, you can see whether that repair has been made yet or not. The means of how that repair is delivered is inconsequential.