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It seems like there is a huge disconnect between people who know about FSD from using it and people who know about FSD from things they read on the internet. I

It seems like there is a huge disconnect between people who know about FSD from using it and people who know about FSD from things they read on the internet. I have FSD, I use it every single day. I love it. If every car on the road had this the road would be a substantially safer place.

helf 4y ago
Until your car decides to randomly slam on its brakes and cause a pile up.
- dpkirchner 4y ago
  I'm reminded of a thread on HN where someone did a cross country trip and their car only phantom-braked a couple of times, and called that a huge success.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    Ha, my new Model 3 phantom braked the first time on the trip home from the service center, which was only 10 miles. I doubt it had even gone over 10 miles on the odometer at that moment.
    - DarmokJalad1701 4y ago
      How were you able to put it into autopilot? Typically, the autopilot is calibrating itself the first 60 or so miles of driving, and it does not let you engage it.
      - rootusrootus 4y ago
        Good question! It didn't argue one bit, literally drove it off the lot at the service center and hit the freeway and turned AP on (it's my second Model 3, so I already have such habits). It's entirely possible it had more miles than 5 on the odometer when I picked it up. Officially the paperwork says 15, the associate who gave me the car said it was actually less, and the odometer isn't very prominent so I never even looked. Maybe it had 50 miles and was a reject ;). I should go check TeslaFi, since I reenabled that the day I bought the car. I confess that the only way I ever know how many miles my car has is when I see it on TeslaFi.
      - nanidin 4y ago
        My 2022 Model Y didn't require any calibration to use autopilot after initially picking it up. IIRC there were 7 miles on the odometer at the time.
- mrdatawolf 4y ago
  Because only a FSD car causes piles up... your right, I NEVER saw 90 car pileups on the news before FSD. /s I'm pointing this out because he said (in italics) "substantially".
  - micromacrofoot 4y ago
    It doesn't really matter, we have multiple incidents of FSD causing accidents due to outright mistakes, not even "a human would have messed up here too" situations.
    - sebzim4500 4y ago
      Humans also mess up in situations that aren't "a human would have messed up here too".
      - micromacrofoot 4y ago
        Sure, but say I consider myself a diligent driver and I've never caused an accident... what does FSD have to offer me? Yet another random opportunity for a car to fail me. Why would I surrender control for that?
    - panick21_ 4y ago
      Do we? Becuase most of the news reports about claims blamed on Autopilot or FSD turn out after investigation not to be cases. In one famous case the policy claimed that the driver was '100% not in the driver seat'. This caused a huge media storm and anti-Tesla wave. Just recently the full report came out and stated that Tesla AP was not used at all and the drive was driving normally. https://electrek.co/2023/02/09/tesla-cleared-highly-publicized-fatal-crash-no-one-in-drivers-seat/ https://electrek.co/2023/02/09/tesla-cleared-highly-publiciz... There are quite few such cases, this one maybe being the one that caused the most media attention. So I tend to discredit all such reports unless its several months after and a full investigation report has been done. Do you have links to verified reports of FSD causing such crashes. It seems to me that phantom breaking could lead to such issues, but I have not yet seen a real report that claims this happened.
- thepasswordis 4y ago
  If my car slams on its brakes, and this causes you to hit me, then you are exactly the type of person I wish was using FSD. You're following too close to me for the conditions, you're distracted, or some combination of both. My car might have to emergency brake for any number of reasons. This should never cause a pileup, and if it does it's your fault, not mine.
  - helf 4y ago
    That’s.. dumb. I’m the type of person who keeps a lot of car lengths between me and the car ahead like you are /supposed to/ but I’ve also had someone panic stop in from of me and, due to road conditions, I cannot stop in time and have hit them. Not hard. But did all the same. FSD and similar aren’t magic bullets that would prevent that. People like you who seem to think they are are also part of the problem. Would a completely automated roadway be fucking awesome for safety and productivity and relaxation? Yes. Is it going to happen anytime soon? Doubtful. Blows my mind how many people are totally willing to risk their own safety and everyone else’s using known buggy as fuck software. On the road. At 70mph. In a 2 ton vehicle. … but it hasn’t been an issue for you! You say. Ok. But I also watch dumb asses lane hop with barely enough room to pass likes it’s a video game and then act surprised when they wreck. So I guess I’m giving people too much credit.
- 12345hn6789 4y ago
  If someone brake checks and you hit them, you're just as much of a problem. Learn defensive driving and stop driving so close to another driver. Keep a safe distance.
  - helf 4y ago
    Tailgating pisses me off. I don’t do it. But this backlash to my comment about hard braking and wrecks is kind of hilarious. Basically, my point is that Tesla has made egregiously bullshit claims about FSD and autopilot. They have given them misleading names. And people who want to “live in the fuuuuture” have eaten it up and are using the Teslas like they are actually capable of driving themselves 100% of the time. In all conditions. If anything, it has made people who rely on it seemingly worse, inattentive drivers. So while I’m glad y’all enjoy your purchased vehicle, don’t pretend all gripes and complaints lobbed at them are invalid or someone else’s fault. That’s asinine and childish.
ceejayoz 4y ago
"Works on my machine!"
enslavedrobot 4y ago
I have the same experience. I think if there was more transparency in the data around FSD related accidents the conversation would be different. The last evidence we have is Tesla stating that there have been no fatalities in 60 million miles of driving under FSD. Pretty good so far.
- rvnx 4y ago
  Yes if we forget that the FSD may conveniently disconnect right before an accident
  - CydeWeys 4y ago
    Yeah, let's now hear the stats on "fatal accidents within 30s of FSD being enabled". You really just can't trust Tesla at all, about anything. There's no integrity there. They won't even be honest with the name of their headline feature!
  - bhauer 4y ago
    For Tesla's collection of data on accidents with Autopilot technologies, they considers Autopilot to have been enabled during the crash if it was on several seconds beforehand. These systems may hand control back to the driver in crash scenarios moments before impact, but that doesn't mean the data will report that the system was not enabled for the incident.
- Veserv 4y ago
  There is no such evidence beyond unsupported proclamations by the vendor who, by the way, has compulsively misrepresented the capabilities of the product for years. The only evidence available that is not completely tainted by a complete conflict of interest is basically Youtube videos and self reported information [1] by investors and super fans that on average show critical driving errors every few minutes and even those are tainted by self interest to over-represent the product. Tesla’s statements should only be believed if they stop deliberately hiding the data from the CA DMV by declaring that FSD does not technically count as a autonomous driving system and is thus not subject to the mandatory reporting requirements for autonomous systems in development. If they did that then there could actually be a sound independent third party statements about their systems. Until that time their claims should be as trusted as Ford’s were on the Pinto. [1] https://www.teslafsdtracker.com/ https://www.teslafsdtracker.com/
root_axis 4y ago
FSD is terrible. I have it, it's dangerous. If I had to go 5 miles through city streets I'd sooner trust a human after 3 shots of tequila before I'd trust FSD every time.
- alfor 4y ago
  Do you have the latest beta? How did it improve in the last 12 months?
  - psychomugs 4y ago
    That other drivers are beta testers for software controlling a large mass of metal and combustibles hurtling down asphalt at _ludicrous_ speeds is something you'd write into a dystopia story. The fact of the fiction is terrifying.
    - alfor 4y ago
      It’s a choice, you are in control all the time.
      - CharlesW 4y ago
        You can re-take control, which may take seconds depending on the mental and physical state of the driver. A lot can happen in a second.
      - ceejayoz 4y ago
        The other drivers on the road, and pedestrians, aren't getting to make that choice.
      - psychomugs 4y ago
        https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2015-01-1407/ https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/20... "This study investigated the driving characteristics of drivers when the system changes from autonomous driving to manual driving in the case of low driver alertness. ... In the results, a significant difference was observed in the reaction time and the brake pedal force for brake pedal operation in the low alertness state, compared to the normal alertness state of the driver, and there were instances when the driver was unable to perform an adequate avoidance operation."
system16 4y ago
As advanced cruise control? It's great. As what it's marketed as? It's fraud.
- rvnx 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - ghqst 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - rvnx 4y ago
      AI model improvements: * Optimus cannot say bad things about Elon Musk anymore. * Added support for Donald Trump. * Added support for The Boring Company flamethrower. * Advertising for Dogecoin.
      - ghqst 4y ago
        * ChatGPT will now cite Elon Musk tweets as a source for 50% of questions.
        rvnx 4y ago
        Twitter as ultimate source of truth
  - panick21_ 4y ago
    Didn't Musk partly create OpenAI?
    - literalAardvark 4y ago
      He exited OpenAI a long time ago, when something didn't go his way. Now it's mostly Microsoft and Altman.
deleted 4y ago
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yumraj 4y ago
It seems there’s a huge disconnect between people who know how to drive and are confident in their skills, and those who are scared to drive and want to offload it to Musk. I’m actually afraid to drive behind a Tesla and either keep extra distance or change lanes if possible. I still have more faith in humans to not randomly brake them in beta FSD. It’s one thing to put your own life in the hands of this beta model, and it’s another to endanger the life and property of others.
- thepasswordis 4y ago
  Yeah it's not that I'm scared of my own driving, I mean that if other people had it it would be safer. Things which have happened in the last 3 days of moderate driving around a city: 1) A car gets impatient at some traffic turning right on a green light in a construction zone, and comes into my lane meaning into oncoming traffic. We have to swerve out of the way and slam on the brakes to avoid them. 2) A guy gets impatient behind me slowing down over a speedbump, tailgates me a few inches behind and then passes me by cutting into oncoming traffic in a no passing zone, then cuts me off, again with a few inches to spare, and speeds through the neighborhood where we eventually meet at the stoplight at the end of the road. 3) Every single day people run red lights. Almost every light where there are people turning left at a green there are 4-5 cars that go through the red light after it turns. My safety score on my tesla is 99. I am an extremely safe driver. I wish FSD was more common because so many people are terrible drivers.
  - bena 4y ago
    Your Tesla tells you you're a safe driver. Well, geez, I'm convinced that the $55,000 (maybe+?) you spent tells you things you like to hear. I mean, one of the criteria is "Late Night Driving". Why not driving between the hours of 4pm and 6pm? When there are a lot more cars on the road, which is just statistically less safe. https://www.tesla.com/support/safety-score#version-1.2 https://www.tesla.com/support/safety-score#version-1.2 And looking at the rest of the criteria, they're ok, but hardly comprehensive. This is like, the bare minimum. It doesn't measure what I would call "doing stupid shit". Like crossing several lanes of traffic to get in a turn lane. Forcibly merging where you shouldn't. Nearly stopping in the middle of traffic before merging into a turn lane at the last minute. Straddling lanes because you're not sure if you really want to change lanes or not. Making a left turn from a major artery onto a side street at a place that is not protected by a light. Coming to a near complete stop for every speed bump, then rushing ahead to the next. And a host of other things that demonstrates the person does not consider other people on the road at all. Here's an entire article about how to game the safety score: https://cleantechnica.com/2021/10/14/three-quick-tips-for-a-higher-tesla-safety-score-and-one-secret-weapon/ https://cleantechnica.com/2021/10/14/three-quick-tips-for-a-... One of the tips is to "drive around the neighborhood when traffic is light". And the car doesn't ding autopilot for behaviors it would knock a human for. Because the assumption is that the car would know better I guess. But then why isn't the safety score simply a deviation from what autopilot would do in a situation? If autopilot would brake hard to avoid a collision, shouldn't you?
rootusrootus 4y ago
I have it (subscription, just wanted to try it out). I won't use it again. It confidently attempted to drive me into a rather solid object with very little warning. If every other car on the road had this, I would sell all my cars and forbid family members from getting anywhere near the road. It's nice on the freeway though.
- qup 4y ago
  To me it's weird you can voice an opinion like "I won't use it" and then say it's nice on the highway, as if you've given it enough of a trial there to endorse it when you think otherwise it's going to be killing people.
  - CharlesW 4y ago
    How is it weird that FSD might work well on extremely simple, boring stretches of road but fall apart as complexity increases?
    - qup 4y ago
      Not that weird, it's just weird to recommend it after you've seen it almost kill you. I doubt he's put in the requisite time/miles/effort/observation/whatever to know that it does great on the highway but not elsewhere. There's solid objects on highways, too.
    - helf 4y ago
      Because the Tesla fans will cling to anything to further their arguments.
  - bdcravens 4y ago
    Pretty sure almost crashing into a solid object seems good enough for giving it a failing score.
    - qup 4y ago
      I definitely agree, in which case I wouldn't find myself endorsing it for any use. Just because I drove X amount of miles without a problem on the highway doesn't mean it's any less likely to drive into a solid object, why would he recommend it?
baguettefurnace 4y ago
This has been my experience as well - I use autopilot a lot and find it works great
AYBABTME 4y ago
It really depends where you drive, it behaves super well in some conditions, and awfully in others. Hence the wide disparity in experience.
mbreese 4y ago
I have a feeling the differences between experiences is heavily influenced by where you are located. There is no way they are adequately able to train across all of the locations FSD is expected to be able to work.
- andrewinardeer 4y ago
  Australian here. We drive on the "wrong" side of the road. I have no idea if FSD even accommodates this different scenario. And if it did, and being from Melbourne, having diabolical yet somewhat logical hook turns (turning from the furthest left lane to turn right) I will bet would not even fall in FSD scope. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hook_turn?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hook_turn?wprov=sfla1
- natch 4y ago
  Because of this, if Tesla solves it they are going to have an almost insurmountable moat.
bandyaboot 4y ago
I suspect that the NHSTA know about FSD from all of the above and more. Even if Tesla’s current implementation were objectively safer than the average human driver, it would still represent a net negative on safety because of the negative impact the glaring flaws will have on peoples’ confidence in self driving tech.
screye 4y ago
In fact, there is a huge disconnect between people who design similar systems (Vision, safety, self driving, robotics, simulations) and those who use them. The criticism of Tesla is coming from experts, not jealous competitors. The problem with systems where 99% is a failing grade, is that 99% of the time, they work great. The other 1% you die. No one is against FSD or safer tech. They are against Tesla's haphazard 2d vision-first FSD. Wanna hear about this new fangled tech that avoids 100% of accidents, has fully-coordinated swarm robotics between all the cars, never swerves and can operate in all weather + lighting conditions ? It's called a street car. The words 'road' and 'safety' should never be uttered in the the same sentence.
- buildbot 4y ago
  Yep, I used to be in this field back in 2018, and everyone was extremely dismissive of the rest of the industries skepticism
- ajross 4y ago
  > The other 1% you die Um... no one died. I understand your point is hyperbole, but you're deploying it in service to what you seem to claim is serious criticism coming from experts. Which experts are claiming FSD beta killed someone? They aren't. So... maybe the "experts" aren't saying what you think they're saying? > Wanna hear about this new fangled tech that avoids 100% of accidents, has fully-coordinated swarm robotics between all the cars, never swerves and can operate in all weather + lighting conditions ? It's called a street car. And this is just laughably wrong. Street cars (because they operate on streets) get into accidents every day, often with horrifying results (because they weigh 20+ tons). They are surely safer than routine passenger cars, but by the standards you set yourself they "aren't safe" and thus must be banned, right?
- helf 4y ago
  GREAT comment. I think a large issue is people are really bad at risk assessment. Also, why the hell did they try doing camera only? Fucking dumb as hell. I would have trusted something like FSD a lot more if they had also put in very advanced radar etc. trying on fucking /cameras/ only for newer models should be a criminal offense.
ajross 4y ago
Ditto. Most fun I've had in a vehicle in my whole life. A robot drives me around every day, and the worst misfeatures are that it's too timid at stop signs and left turns, makes poor lane choices sometimes (oops, can't turn, will go around), occasionally zipper merges like a jerk (yes, technically you can use that lane, but if you try you'll get honked at -- car doesn't care). But the company is run by an asshole who people love to hate, so... everything it does is Maximally Wrong. There's no space for reasoned discourse like "FSD isn't finished but it's very safe as deployed and amazingly fun". It's all about murder and death and moral absolutism. The internet is a terrible place, but I guess we knew that already. At least in the meantime we have a fun car to play with.
- clouddrover 4y ago
  > FSD isn't finished "Full self-driving" has not been delivered after years worth of lies. It isn't about "murder and death and moral absolutism". It's about fraud. Your vehicle is a dead end. It will not be upgraded to the latest hardware. It will not attain "full self-driving".
  - ajross 4y ago
    This is a "me or your lying eyes" argument. It drives my kids to school. Why is it so important to you that I not enjoy the product I purchased and love? You realize you aren't going to win an argument like that, right? You think I'm going to just wake up and realize that it can't do what I see it do?
    - clouddrover 4y ago
      It doesn't matter how you rationalise it to yourself or how irresponsible you are in using it. Your car does not do full self-driving. It is stranded on Hardware 3. It will not get Hardware 4 unless a lawsuit enforces it: https://electrek.co/2023/02/15/tesla-self-driving-hw4-computer-leaks-teardown/ https://electrek.co/2023/02/15/tesla-self-driving-hw4-comput... Tesla has lied about full self-driving for years: https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now-have-full-self-driving-hardware https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now... Tesla has admitted to false advertising around full self-driving: https://electrek.co/2022/12/12/tesla-ordered-upgrade-self-driving-computer-for-free-false-advertising/ https://electrek.co/2022/12/12/tesla-ordered-upgrade-self-dr... Tesla has admitted that they have failed to deliver full self-driving. Tesla is now scrambling around trying to avoid being done for fraud: https://electrek.co/2022/12/07/tesla-self-driving-claims-failure-realize-long-term-aspirational-goal-not-fraud/ https://electrek.co/2022/12/07/tesla-self-driving-claims-fai... If even Tesla can admit it, find a way to admit it to yourself.
deleted 4y ago
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breck 4y ago
Exactly. I think a lot of "people" online are paid shills. HN should severely downrank any "opinion" posts from anon accounts. I have a Tesla with FSD and it's incredible. Though it drives way worse than me, it drives pretty darn good, and will save a ton of lives and change the world by freeing up a lot of time for people to do more important things.
- gg-plz 4y ago
  Is your post supposed to be read as genuine or sarcastic? It looks to me like a strawman of a Tesla owner stereotype, and I don’t want to accidentally eat the onion here by taking it at face value. Your post appears to be saying that Tesla’s FSD is way worse than human drivers, not safer than them, but we should still welcome it for the convenience. Again, this reads like a strawman. I would like to think the average Tesla owner would not endorse that statement. The goal isn’t to save time at the cost of lives, it’s to save both, non?
  - breck 4y ago
    > is way worse than human drivers No, I said it's way worse than me. Probably around performance of the average human driver. I am training to be an astronaut, so on the advanced side.
    - gg-plz 4y ago
      A lot of people say they’re significantly better than average driver. It’s such a stereotypical thing to say, that it probably has negative truth value on average, since it reflects broad personal confidence more than actual driving skill. You still sound like you’re trying to present the weakest possible straw man for Tesla critics to attack. Stop this bad faith attempt to make Tesla look bad; you’re dragging down the discourse. Nobody is going to take your bait and feed you the expected counter arguments to the nonsense you expressed up-thread.
conductr 4y ago
I've never used it but in my book "Full Self-Driving Beta" is an oxymoron
aredox 4y ago
Like Wozniak? https://www.techspot.com/news/97563-steve-wozniak-slams-dishonest-elon-musk-tesla-robbing.html https://www.techspot.com/news/97563-steve-wozniak-slams-dish...

helf 4y ago

Until your car decides to randomly slam on its brakes and cause a pile up.

dpkirchner 4y ago
I'm reminded of a thread on HN where someone did a cross country trip and their car only phantom-braked a couple of times, and called that a huge success.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  Ha, my new Model 3 phantom braked the first time on the trip home from the service center, which was only 10 miles. I doubt it had even gone over 10 miles on the odometer at that moment.
  - DarmokJalad1701 4y ago
    How were you able to put it into autopilot? Typically, the autopilot is calibrating itself the first 60 or so miles of driving, and it does not let you engage it.
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      Good question! It didn't argue one bit, literally drove it off the lot at the service center and hit the freeway and turned AP on (it's my second Model 3, so I already have such habits). It's entirely possible it had more miles than 5 on the odometer when I picked it up. Officially the paperwork says 15, the associate who gave me the car said it was actually less, and the odometer isn't very prominent so I never even looked. Maybe it had 50 miles and was a reject ;). I should go check TeslaFi, since I reenabled that the day I bought the car. I confess that the only way I ever know how many miles my car has is when I see it on TeslaFi.
    - nanidin 4y ago
      My 2022 Model Y didn't require any calibration to use autopilot after initially picking it up. IIRC there were 7 miles on the odometer at the time.
mrdatawolf 4y ago
Because only a FSD car causes piles up... your right, I NEVER saw 90 car pileups on the news before FSD. /s I'm pointing this out because he said (in italics) "substantially".
- micromacrofoot 4y ago
  It doesn't really matter, we have multiple incidents of FSD causing accidents due to outright mistakes, not even "a human would have messed up here too" situations.
  - sebzim4500 4y ago
    Humans also mess up in situations that aren't "a human would have messed up here too".
    - micromacrofoot 4y ago
      Sure, but say I consider myself a diligent driver and I've never caused an accident... what does FSD have to offer me? Yet another random opportunity for a car to fail me. Why would I surrender control for that?
  - panick21_ 4y ago
    Do we? Becuase most of the news reports about claims blamed on Autopilot or FSD turn out after investigation not to be cases. In one famous case the policy claimed that the driver was '100% not in the driver seat'. This caused a huge media storm and anti-Tesla wave. Just recently the full report came out and stated that Tesla AP was not used at all and the drive was driving normally. https://electrek.co/2023/02/09/tesla-cleared-highly-publicized-fatal-crash-no-one-in-drivers-seat/ https://electrek.co/2023/02/09/tesla-cleared-highly-publiciz... There are quite few such cases, this one maybe being the one that caused the most media attention. So I tend to discredit all such reports unless its several months after and a full investigation report has been done. Do you have links to verified reports of FSD causing such crashes. It seems to me that phantom breaking could lead to such issues, but I have not yet seen a real report that claims this happened.
thepasswordis 4y ago
If my car slams on its brakes, and this causes you to hit me, then you are exactly the type of person I wish was using FSD. You're following too close to me for the conditions, you're distracted, or some combination of both. My car might have to emergency brake for any number of reasons. This should never cause a pileup, and if it does it's your fault, not mine.
- helf 4y ago
  That’s.. dumb. I’m the type of person who keeps a lot of car lengths between me and the car ahead like you are /supposed to/ but I’ve also had someone panic stop in from of me and, due to road conditions, I cannot stop in time and have hit them. Not hard. But did all the same. FSD and similar aren’t magic bullets that would prevent that. People like you who seem to think they are are also part of the problem. Would a completely automated roadway be fucking awesome for safety and productivity and relaxation? Yes. Is it going to happen anytime soon? Doubtful. Blows my mind how many people are totally willing to risk their own safety and everyone else’s using known buggy as fuck software. On the road. At 70mph. In a 2 ton vehicle. … but it hasn’t been an issue for you! You say. Ok. But I also watch dumb asses lane hop with barely enough room to pass likes it’s a video game and then act surprised when they wreck. So I guess I’m giving people too much credit.
12345hn6789 4y ago
If someone brake checks and you hit them, you're just as much of a problem. Learn defensive driving and stop driving so close to another driver. Keep a safe distance.
- helf 4y ago
  Tailgating pisses me off. I don’t do it. But this backlash to my comment about hard braking and wrecks is kind of hilarious. Basically, my point is that Tesla has made egregiously bullshit claims about FSD and autopilot. They have given them misleading names. And people who want to “live in the fuuuuture” have eaten it up and are using the Teslas like they are actually capable of driving themselves 100% of the time. In all conditions. If anything, it has made people who rely on it seemingly worse, inattentive drivers. So while I’m glad y’all enjoy your purchased vehicle, don’t pretend all gripes and complaints lobbed at them are invalid or someone else’s fault. That’s asinine and childish.

ceejayoz 4y ago

"Works on my machine!"

enslavedrobot 4y ago

I have the same experience. I think if there was more transparency in the data around FSD related accidents the conversation would be different. The last evidence we have is Tesla stating that there have been no fatalities in 60 million miles of driving under FSD. Pretty good so far.

rvnx 4y ago
Yes if we forget that the FSD may conveniently disconnect right before an accident
- CydeWeys 4y ago
  Yeah, let's now hear the stats on "fatal accidents within 30s of FSD being enabled". You really just can't trust Tesla at all, about anything. There's no integrity there. They won't even be honest with the name of their headline feature!
- bhauer 4y ago
  For Tesla's collection of data on accidents with Autopilot technologies, they considers Autopilot to have been enabled during the crash if it was on several seconds beforehand. These systems may hand control back to the driver in crash scenarios moments before impact, but that doesn't mean the data will report that the system was not enabled for the incident.
Veserv 4y ago
There is no such evidence beyond unsupported proclamations by the vendor who, by the way, has compulsively misrepresented the capabilities of the product for years. The only evidence available that is not completely tainted by a complete conflict of interest is basically Youtube videos and self reported information [1] by investors and super fans that on average show critical driving errors every few minutes and even those are tainted by self interest to over-represent the product. Tesla’s statements should only be believed if they stop deliberately hiding the data from the CA DMV by declaring that FSD does not technically count as a autonomous driving system and is thus not subject to the mandatory reporting requirements for autonomous systems in development. If they did that then there could actually be a sound independent third party statements about their systems. Until that time their claims should be as trusted as Ford’s were on the Pinto. [1] https://www.teslafsdtracker.com/ https://www.teslafsdtracker.com/

root_axis 4y ago

FSD is terrible. I have it, it's dangerous. If I had to go 5 miles through city streets I'd sooner trust a human after 3 shots of tequila before I'd trust FSD every time.

alfor 4y ago
Do you have the latest beta? How did it improve in the last 12 months?
- psychomugs 4y ago
  That other drivers are beta testers for software controlling a large mass of metal and combustibles hurtling down asphalt at _ludicrous_ speeds is something you'd write into a dystopia story. The fact of the fiction is terrifying.
  - alfor 4y ago
    It’s a choice, you are in control all the time.
    - CharlesW 4y ago
      You can re-take control, which may take seconds depending on the mental and physical state of the driver. A lot can happen in a second.
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      The other drivers on the road, and pedestrians, aren't getting to make that choice.
    - psychomugs 4y ago
      https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2015-01-1407/ https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/20... "This study investigated the driving characteristics of drivers when the system changes from autonomous driving to manual driving in the case of low driver alertness. ... In the results, a significant difference was observed in the reaction time and the brake pedal force for brake pedal operation in the low alertness state, compared to the normal alertness state of the driver, and there were instances when the driver was unable to perform an adequate avoidance operation."

system16 4y ago

As advanced cruise control? It's great. As what it's marketed as? It's fraud.

rvnx 4y ago
[flagged]
- ghqst 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - rvnx 4y ago
    AI model improvements: * Optimus cannot say bad things about Elon Musk anymore. * Added support for Donald Trump. * Added support for The Boring Company flamethrower. * Advertising for Dogecoin.
    - ghqst 4y ago
      * ChatGPT will now cite Elon Musk tweets as a source for 50% of questions.
      - rvnx 4y ago
        Twitter as ultimate source of truth
- panick21_ 4y ago
  Didn't Musk partly create OpenAI?
  - literalAardvark 4y ago
    He exited OpenAI a long time ago, when something didn't go his way. Now it's mostly Microsoft and Altman.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

yumraj 4y ago

It seems there’s a huge disconnect between people who know how to drive and are confident in their skills, and those who are scared to drive and want to offload it to Musk. I’m actually afraid to drive behind a Tesla and either keep extra distance or change lanes if possible. I still have more faith in humans to not randomly brake them in beta FSD. It’s one thing to put your own life in the hands of this beta model, and it’s another to endanger the life and property of others.

thepasswordis 4y ago
Yeah it's not that I'm scared of my own driving, I mean that if other people had it it would be safer. Things which have happened in the last 3 days of moderate driving around a city: 1) A car gets impatient at some traffic turning right on a green light in a construction zone, and comes into my lane meaning into oncoming traffic. We have to swerve out of the way and slam on the brakes to avoid them. 2) A guy gets impatient behind me slowing down over a speedbump, tailgates me a few inches behind and then passes me by cutting into oncoming traffic in a no passing zone, then cuts me off, again with a few inches to spare, and speeds through the neighborhood where we eventually meet at the stoplight at the end of the road. 3) Every single day people run red lights. Almost every light where there are people turning left at a green there are 4-5 cars that go through the red light after it turns. My safety score on my tesla is 99. I am an extremely safe driver. I wish FSD was more common because so many people are terrible drivers.
- bena 4y ago
  Your Tesla tells you you're a safe driver. Well, geez, I'm convinced that the $55,000 (maybe+?) you spent tells you things you like to hear. I mean, one of the criteria is "Late Night Driving". Why not driving between the hours of 4pm and 6pm? When there are a lot more cars on the road, which is just statistically less safe. https://www.tesla.com/support/safety-score#version-1.2 https://www.tesla.com/support/safety-score#version-1.2 And looking at the rest of the criteria, they're ok, but hardly comprehensive. This is like, the bare minimum. It doesn't measure what I would call "doing stupid shit". Like crossing several lanes of traffic to get in a turn lane. Forcibly merging where you shouldn't. Nearly stopping in the middle of traffic before merging into a turn lane at the last minute. Straddling lanes because you're not sure if you really want to change lanes or not. Making a left turn from a major artery onto a side street at a place that is not protected by a light. Coming to a near complete stop for every speed bump, then rushing ahead to the next. And a host of other things that demonstrates the person does not consider other people on the road at all. Here's an entire article about how to game the safety score: https://cleantechnica.com/2021/10/14/three-quick-tips-for-a-higher-tesla-safety-score-and-one-secret-weapon/ https://cleantechnica.com/2021/10/14/three-quick-tips-for-a-... One of the tips is to "drive around the neighborhood when traffic is light". And the car doesn't ding autopilot for behaviors it would knock a human for. Because the assumption is that the car would know better I guess. But then why isn't the safety score simply a deviation from what autopilot would do in a situation? If autopilot would brake hard to avoid a collision, shouldn't you?

rootusrootus 4y ago

I have it (subscription, just wanted to try it out). I won't use it again. It confidently attempted to drive me into a rather solid object with very little warning. If every other car on the road had this, I would sell all my cars and forbid family members from getting anywhere near the road. It's nice on the freeway though.

qup 4y ago
To me it's weird you can voice an opinion like "I won't use it" and then say it's nice on the highway, as if you've given it enough of a trial there to endorse it when you think otherwise it's going to be killing people.
- CharlesW 4y ago
  How is it weird that FSD might work well on extremely simple, boring stretches of road but fall apart as complexity increases?
  - qup 4y ago
    Not that weird, it's just weird to recommend it after you've seen it almost kill you. I doubt he's put in the requisite time/miles/effort/observation/whatever to know that it does great on the highway but not elsewhere. There's solid objects on highways, too.
  - helf 4y ago
    Because the Tesla fans will cling to anything to further their arguments.
- bdcravens 4y ago
  Pretty sure almost crashing into a solid object seems good enough for giving it a failing score.
  - qup 4y ago
    I definitely agree, in which case I wouldn't find myself endorsing it for any use. Just because I drove X amount of miles without a problem on the highway doesn't mean it's any less likely to drive into a solid object, why would he recommend it?

baguettefurnace 4y ago

This has been my experience as well - I use autopilot a lot and find it works great

AYBABTME 4y ago

It really depends where you drive, it behaves super well in some conditions, and awfully in others. Hence the wide disparity in experience.

mbreese 4y ago

I have a feeling the differences between experiences is heavily influenced by where you are located. There is no way they are adequately able to train across all of the locations FSD is expected to be able to work.

andrewinardeer 4y ago
Australian here. We drive on the "wrong" side of the road. I have no idea if FSD even accommodates this different scenario. And if it did, and being from Melbourne, having diabolical yet somewhat logical hook turns (turning from the furthest left lane to turn right) I will bet would not even fall in FSD scope. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hook_turn?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hook_turn?wprov=sfla1
natch 4y ago
Because of this, if Tesla solves it they are going to have an almost insurmountable moat.

bandyaboot 4y ago

I suspect that the NHSTA know about FSD from all of the above and more. Even if Tesla’s current implementation were objectively safer than the average human driver, it would still represent a net negative on safety because of the negative impact the glaring flaws will have on peoples’ confidence in self driving tech.

screye 4y ago

In fact, there is a huge disconnect between people who design similar systems (Vision, safety, self driving, robotics, simulations) and those who use them. The criticism of Tesla is coming from experts, not jealous competitors. The problem with systems where 99% is a failing grade, is that 99% of the time, they work great. The other 1% you die. No one is against FSD or safer tech. They are against Tesla's haphazard 2d vision-first FSD. Wanna hear about this new fangled tech that avoids 100% of accidents, has fully-coordinated swarm robotics between all the cars, never swerves and can operate in all weather + lighting conditions ? It's called a street car. The words 'road' and 'safety' should never be uttered in the the same sentence.

buildbot 4y ago
Yep, I used to be in this field back in 2018, and everyone was extremely dismissive of the rest of the industries skepticism
ajross 4y ago
> The other 1% you die Um... no one died. I understand your point is hyperbole, but you're deploying it in service to what you seem to claim is serious criticism coming from experts. Which experts are claiming FSD beta killed someone? They aren't. So... maybe the "experts" aren't saying what you think they're saying? > Wanna hear about this new fangled tech that avoids 100% of accidents, has fully-coordinated swarm robotics between all the cars, never swerves and can operate in all weather + lighting conditions ? It's called a street car. And this is just laughably wrong. Street cars (because they operate on streets) get into accidents every day, often with horrifying results (because they weigh 20+ tons). They are surely safer than routine passenger cars, but by the standards you set yourself they "aren't safe" and thus must be banned, right?
helf 4y ago
GREAT comment. I think a large issue is people are really bad at risk assessment. Also, why the hell did they try doing camera only? Fucking dumb as hell. I would have trusted something like FSD a lot more if they had also put in very advanced radar etc. trying on fucking /cameras/ only for newer models should be a criminal offense.

ajross 4y ago

Ditto. Most fun I've had in a vehicle in my whole life. A robot drives me around every day, and the worst misfeatures are that it's too timid at stop signs and left turns, makes poor lane choices sometimes (oops, can't turn, will go around), occasionally zipper merges like a jerk (yes, technically you can use that lane, but if you try you'll get honked at -- car doesn't care). But the company is run by an asshole who people love to hate, so... everything it does is Maximally Wrong. There's no space for reasoned discourse like "FSD isn't finished but it's very safe as deployed and amazingly fun". It's all about murder and death and moral absolutism. The internet is a terrible place, but I guess we knew that already. At least in the meantime we have a fun car to play with.

clouddrover 4y ago
> FSD isn't finished "Full self-driving" has not been delivered after years worth of lies. It isn't about "murder and death and moral absolutism". It's about fraud. Your vehicle is a dead end. It will not be upgraded to the latest hardware. It will not attain "full self-driving".
- ajross 4y ago
  This is a "me or your lying eyes" argument. It drives my kids to school. Why is it so important to you that I not enjoy the product I purchased and love? You realize you aren't going to win an argument like that, right? You think I'm going to just wake up and realize that it can't do what I see it do?
  - clouddrover 4y ago
    It doesn't matter how you rationalise it to yourself or how irresponsible you are in using it. Your car does not do full self-driving. It is stranded on Hardware 3. It will not get Hardware 4 unless a lawsuit enforces it: https://electrek.co/2023/02/15/tesla-self-driving-hw4-computer-leaks-teardown/ https://electrek.co/2023/02/15/tesla-self-driving-hw4-comput... Tesla has lied about full self-driving for years: https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now-have-full-self-driving-hardware https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now... Tesla has admitted to false advertising around full self-driving: https://electrek.co/2022/12/12/tesla-ordered-upgrade-self-driving-computer-for-free-false-advertising/ https://electrek.co/2022/12/12/tesla-ordered-upgrade-self-dr... Tesla has admitted that they have failed to deliver full self-driving. Tesla is now scrambling around trying to avoid being done for fraud: https://electrek.co/2022/12/07/tesla-self-driving-claims-failure-realize-long-term-aspirational-goal-not-fraud/ https://electrek.co/2022/12/07/tesla-self-driving-claims-fai... If even Tesla can admit it, find a way to admit it to yourself.

deleted 4y ago

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breck 4y ago

Exactly. I think a lot of "people" online are paid shills. HN should severely downrank any "opinion" posts from anon accounts. I have a Tesla with FSD and it's incredible. Though it drives way worse than me, it drives pretty darn good, and will save a ton of lives and change the world by freeing up a lot of time for people to do more important things.

gg-plz 4y ago
Is your post supposed to be read as genuine or sarcastic? It looks to me like a strawman of a Tesla owner stereotype, and I don’t want to accidentally eat the onion here by taking it at face value. Your post appears to be saying that Tesla’s FSD is way worse than human drivers, not safer than them, but we should still welcome it for the convenience. Again, this reads like a strawman. I would like to think the average Tesla owner would not endorse that statement. The goal isn’t to save time at the cost of lives, it’s to save both, non?
- breck 4y ago
  > is way worse than human drivers No, I said it's way worse than me. Probably around performance of the average human driver. I am training to be an astronaut, so on the advanced side.
  - gg-plz 4y ago
    A lot of people say they’re significantly better than average driver. It’s such a stereotypical thing to say, that it probably has negative truth value on average, since it reflects broad personal confidence more than actual driving skill. You still sound like you’re trying to present the weakest possible straw man for Tesla critics to attack. Stop this bad faith attempt to make Tesla look bad; you’re dragging down the discourse. Nobody is going to take your bait and feed you the expected counter arguments to the nonsense you expressed up-thread.

conductr 4y ago

I've never used it but in my book "Full Self-Driving Beta" is an oxymoron

aredox 4y ago

Like Wozniak? https://www.techspot.com/news/97563-steve-wozniak-slams-dishonest-elon-musk-tesla-robbing.html https://www.techspot.com/news/97563-steve-wozniak-slams-dish...