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Off topic rant, but in my personal experience brands destroy more value/goodwill on their email marketing campaigns than any incremental sales they generate. W

Off topic rant, but in my personal experience brands destroy more value/goodwill on their email marketing campaigns than any incremental sales they generate. Why even give me the option to not sign up for your email marketing list when I check out if you’re going to spam me anyway?

remram 4y ago
This is extremely on topic. If a company thinks "marketing email open rate" is a target, it has lost track of what marketing is. The point is to drive business to the company and that is what should be measured. If people click on your email but don't do any purchase they were already about to make, they are useless. If your spam also alienate your customers, stop what you're doing, no matter your open rate! I don't understand how so many companies let their marketing department get away with this.
- dazc 4y ago
  'I don't understand how so many companies let their marketing department get away with this.' Probably because their marketing people are highly skilled at marketing themselves.
  - paulcole 4y ago
    It surely couldn't have anything to do with non-marketers overestimating their knowledge of marketing. You wouldn't trust a marketer to give input on the job of computer programming. Why would you trust a programmer to give input on the job of marketing?
  - badwolf 4y ago
    or... because marketing works. Something folks here are rare to ever admit. HN is populated with amazing people who see thru all facades and are completely incapable of ever being a 'victim' of advertising, because we all know better!
    - dazc 4y ago
      Indeed it does, I'm not sure that means we shouldn't criticize some of the most annoying aspects of it though?
    - chowells 4y ago
      Marketing working is exactly what makes it unethical.
    - remram 4y ago
      It definitely has an impact in general, that doesn't mean that every marketing campaign has a positive impact on their company. Though of course if you only ask the marketing department whether they are efficient, they are going to always say yes.
- dylanowen 4y ago
  100%! I open every marketing email I receive, to hit unsubscribe...
- burnished 4y ago
  The first time you personally get an effective marketing email it all starts to click - I suspect that you and I have had similar experiences in that we arent really the demographic those emails are trying to reach and that we only bought a product as the most expedient way to fill a need. Thus all further communication becomes an irritant. But for me the aha moment was getting an email from a restaurant supply store where I was genuinely interested in the range of goods they were advertising (hell yes I would like more information on a cotton candy machine!). The point here being that your own personal interaction with it might not generalize well - it alienates you, but maybe you arent really their customer anyway? Their might well be people that appreciate those emails.
  - remram 4y ago
    I am not saying that no marketing campaign works, I am saying that not all of it is effective, and that companies should be at least interested in finding out whether their own marketing department is helping the business. I don't understand how anyone takes "email click rate is high" as a definite signal that the whole effort is beneficial and worth the money. This is similar to hiring a cloud team and getting reports that "CPU utilization is high" across the VMs. Of course using the cloud makes sense for a variety of companies, but if this is the only metric you use to know whether your cloud team is beneficial to the business, you really have no idea.
    - burnished 4y ago
      Ah, I see. I thought you had trouble seeing why some one would do that at all, which is how I previously felt. It really seems like a traditional case of "bit shit at your job huh?". Like, they are trying to do the efficacious thing, just failing.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
Marketing objectively makes the world worse. Every other complaint about them is just a matter of precisely how. Their goal is to hijack our attention to sell us shit we don't need. To that end they will neg us and play confidence tricks. The constant exposure to these messages causes significant psychological damage that translates into sociological damage. Society would be much better off if we shot every marketer into the sun.
- ploum 4y ago
  Bill Hicks nailed it… https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=tHEOGrkhDp0 https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=tHEOGrkhDp0 What I find still completely baffling about marketers is that not only they have no shame, but they still seems proud of it to the point on posting on HN. Let’s be clear: - You are, on purpose, annoying millions of people. - You are destroying the brand and the value that employ you - You are ensuring that the company is focused on metrics completely unrelated to its real success - You are consuming lot of resources of the company - You are consuming natural resources to do all of that. and, worse of all, - You have convinced everyone, from politicians to NGO and small family shop that everybody in the world should be like you and think like you. That’s probably the first time ever I do really want to downvote a link submitted to HN
  - survirtual 4y ago
    Yeah. Marketers have turned my email, a tool I once used for personal connection, writing and corresponding with people in long form, into a soulless cesspool of corporate speak trying to sell me on something or drive my attention towards something with only one goal: give me your money. We want your money. We love money and we want yours, we want more, give me give me give me. It is truly putrid, a plague on society akin to having a sociological STD - minus the sex, so it might even be worse. And its non-consensual so continue that analogy as you will. We need radical policy reforms in privacy and universal “DO NOT MARKET TO ME” option, where, if violated, results in JAIL TIME for whoever clicked “send” on a marketing email, and the same for anyone who order them to click send. Not fines. Jail time. What they are doing is worse, far worse, than some carrying an ounce of weed in their ride.
tootie 4y ago
That's a measurably false statement. Email marketing is done so aggressively because it's so successful. Marketing is about conversion. It's not about making everyone love you. Having a 1M customers who like your brand and don't buy anything is less valuable than 10K who spend actual money. You may be equally shocked that direct mail (ie paper mail) still have extremely high conversion rates which is you still get so many ads in your mailbox.
- kneebonian 4y ago
  "I am a highly desireable mail I had over a dozen women agree to go on a date with me." "How many women did you ask?" "Twelve hundred, obviously I just need to be more aggressive in pursuing a larger number of women as it will make me more desirable."
zztop44 4y ago
I think this is probably not true. For certain types of businesses email marketing is shockingly effective at generating revenue. And extremely cost effective compared to paid advertising. Of course some people are of the opinion that all marketing is inexcusable and that if the product is good it will sell itself. Respectfully, I’d question how much experience those people have with selling products.

remram 4y ago

This is extremely on topic. If a company thinks "marketing email open rate" is a target, it has lost track of what marketing is. The point is to drive business to the company and that is what should be measured. If people click on your email but don't do any purchase they were already about to make, they are useless. If your spam also alienate your customers, stop what you're doing, no matter your open rate! I don't understand how so many companies let their marketing department get away with this.

dazc 4y ago
'I don't understand how so many companies let their marketing department get away with this.' Probably because their marketing people are highly skilled at marketing themselves.
- paulcole 4y ago
  It surely couldn't have anything to do with non-marketers overestimating their knowledge of marketing. You wouldn't trust a marketer to give input on the job of computer programming. Why would you trust a programmer to give input on the job of marketing?
- badwolf 4y ago
  or... because marketing works. Something folks here are rare to ever admit. HN is populated with amazing people who see thru all facades and are completely incapable of ever being a 'victim' of advertising, because we all know better!
  - dazc 4y ago
    Indeed it does, I'm not sure that means we shouldn't criticize some of the most annoying aspects of it though?
  - chowells 4y ago
    Marketing working is exactly what makes it unethical.
  - remram 4y ago
    It definitely has an impact in general, that doesn't mean that every marketing campaign has a positive impact on their company. Though of course if you only ask the marketing department whether they are efficient, they are going to always say yes.
dylanowen 4y ago
100%! I open every marketing email I receive, to hit unsubscribe...
burnished 4y ago
The first time you personally get an effective marketing email it all starts to click - I suspect that you and I have had similar experiences in that we arent really the demographic those emails are trying to reach and that we only bought a product as the most expedient way to fill a need. Thus all further communication becomes an irritant. But for me the aha moment was getting an email from a restaurant supply store where I was genuinely interested in the range of goods they were advertising (hell yes I would like more information on a cotton candy machine!). The point here being that your own personal interaction with it might not generalize well - it alienates you, but maybe you arent really their customer anyway? Their might well be people that appreciate those emails.
- remram 4y ago
  I am not saying that no marketing campaign works, I am saying that not all of it is effective, and that companies should be at least interested in finding out whether their own marketing department is helping the business. I don't understand how anyone takes "email click rate is high" as a definite signal that the whole effort is beneficial and worth the money. This is similar to hiring a cloud team and getting reports that "CPU utilization is high" across the VMs. Of course using the cloud makes sense for a variety of companies, but if this is the only metric you use to know whether your cloud team is beneficial to the business, you really have no idea.
  - burnished 4y ago
    Ah, I see. I thought you had trouble seeing why some one would do that at all, which is how I previously felt. It really seems like a traditional case of "bit shit at your job huh?". Like, they are trying to do the efficacious thing, just failing.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago

Marketing objectively makes the world worse. Every other complaint about them is just a matter of precisely how. Their goal is to hijack our attention to sell us shit we don't need. To that end they will neg us and play confidence tricks. The constant exposure to these messages causes significant psychological damage that translates into sociological damage. Society would be much better off if we shot every marketer into the sun.

ploum 4y ago
Bill Hicks nailed it… https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=tHEOGrkhDp0 https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=tHEOGrkhDp0 What I find still completely baffling about marketers is that not only they have no shame, but they still seems proud of it to the point on posting on HN. Let’s be clear: - You are, on purpose, annoying millions of people. - You are destroying the brand and the value that employ you - You are ensuring that the company is focused on metrics completely unrelated to its real success - You are consuming lot of resources of the company - You are consuming natural resources to do all of that. and, worse of all, - You have convinced everyone, from politicians to NGO and small family shop that everybody in the world should be like you and think like you. That’s probably the first time ever I do really want to downvote a link submitted to HN
- survirtual 4y ago
  Yeah. Marketers have turned my email, a tool I once used for personal connection, writing and corresponding with people in long form, into a soulless cesspool of corporate speak trying to sell me on something or drive my attention towards something with only one goal: give me your money. We want your money. We love money and we want yours, we want more, give me give me give me. It is truly putrid, a plague on society akin to having a sociological STD - minus the sex, so it might even be worse. And its non-consensual so continue that analogy as you will. We need radical policy reforms in privacy and universal “DO NOT MARKET TO ME” option, where, if violated, results in JAIL TIME for whoever clicked “send” on a marketing email, and the same for anyone who order them to click send. Not fines. Jail time. What they are doing is worse, far worse, than some carrying an ounce of weed in their ride.

tootie 4y ago

That's a measurably false statement. Email marketing is done so aggressively because it's so successful. Marketing is about conversion. It's not about making everyone love you. Having a 1M customers who like your brand and don't buy anything is less valuable than 10K who spend actual money. You may be equally shocked that direct mail (ie paper mail) still have extremely high conversion rates which is you still get so many ads in your mailbox.

kneebonian 4y ago
"I am a highly desireable mail I had over a dozen women agree to go on a date with me." "How many women did you ask?" "Twelve hundred, obviously I just need to be more aggressive in pursuing a larger number of women as it will make me more desirable."

zztop44 4y ago

I think this is probably not true. For certain types of businesses email marketing is shockingly effective at generating revenue. And extremely cost effective compared to paid advertising. Of course some people are of the opinion that all marketing is inexcusable and that if the product is good it will sell itself. Respectfully, I’d question how much experience those people have with selling products.