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In the medium-term, the cultural shear between the US and Germany will continue to be highlighted by decisions like this. Germany leans heavily to more and mor

In the medium-term, the cultural shear between the US and Germany will continue to be highlighted by decisions like this. Germany leans heavily to more and more privacy because they have the experience in recent memory of what a government can do with vast information collection and centralized authority. America leans lightly towards more and more centralization of data because they have the experience in recent memory of what individuals who "slip through the cracks" can do. So in Germany we see decisions like this and in the US we see police using privately-curated DNA databases to defrost the cold case of a serial killer, and they're lauded as heroes. (It's worth noting, of course, that this is all relative. Relative to most of Europe, the US is starting from a place of massive decentralization and minimal individual-tracking. Some people still find social security numbers controversial).

sneak 4y ago
> Germany leans heavily to more and more privacy because they have the experience in recent memory of what a government can do with vast information collection and centralized authority. I theorize that in a hundred years or so, North Americans will have learned this lesson the hard way and will have atrocities in recent history, too. I'm sad I won't see the day when Bluffdale is repurposed as a memorial to state surveillance, much like the Stasi headquarters are now in Berlin.
bakuninsbart 4y ago
Can't find the study now, but there was a sociological survey of software engineers in the US and Europe, one really interesting thing was that the top social concern when implementing solutions for Americans was fairness, for Germans it was privacy. The other concern didn't even make the top 5 for either.
qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
If china ever gets democratic, a new mighty privacy player will appear. Chinas citizens have the same nasty experience as east germans had with the stasi and the poles, chechs with the cheka. They have been spied upon, reported upon by there fellow citizen and have been victims of "zersetzung". Aka social engineering to destroy a citizen. https://www.stasi-unterlagen-archiv.de/mfs-lexikon/detail/zersetzung/ https://www.stasi-unterlagen-archiv.de/mfs-lexikon/detail/ze... Link is german: Shows how denunciation aka controlled leaking of private life like affairs was used, to destroy the lifes of resisting citizens. PS: FB and Google could in theory use similar instruments against citizens that put pressure on them. Nobody could ever catch them at it. If the ccp ever gets swept away and replaced by a new better china, the resulting parties will outdo one another to promise freedom and privacy.
- Swizec 4y ago
  Hey hey hey, don’t leave us ex-Yugoslavians out! We had UDBA and political prisons and much of the rest. I hear it was “great” (too young to remember/experience myself). Yes it wasn’t as bad as many other places. But bad enough for people to know there are things you can and can’t talk about in public. Growing up it was interesting to observe how my history class evolved from elementary to high school as news and declassifications trickled out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Security_Administration_(Yugoslavia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Security_Administration_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Political_repression_in_Communist_Yugoslavia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Political_repression_...
  - qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
    Ah, do you have "Auskunftsrecht", were you can hand in your familys name at the states office, and they will crawl the Security office documentation for your name and give you all the information on all the people who brought shame upon themselves? Bonuspoints: If you had family who was horrible in the Nazi times and the descendants then were horrible during Stasi times. And you know, anyone who can remember the name can crawl that info.. makes you wish, the ground could melt and swallow you. Imagine that info got bundled into a family dharma app, were crimes would follow your family name through the generations. Nowhere on the planet, can you escape the murder spree of grandpas uncle.
    - Swizec 4y ago
      Well no, because many (most?) of the people who were bad during nazi times simply got killed by the communists and put in unmarked mass graves. No records.
    - shadowgovt 4y ago
      Many cultures have a simple "You are not guilty of crimes other people committed" rule baked into their law and culture to accommodate this, because what you're describing is also just known as "history." In general, most people have at least one near ancestor that did something terrible. That makes none of the descendents terrible people.
BlueTemplar 4y ago
I don't understand that last bit : in my understanding, the way that social security numbers are used in the US would be illegal in most (?) countries in Europe ? For instance, in France specifically since the 1974 SAFARI scandal that resulted in the creation of the French data protection authority and assorted laws in 1978, and happened when the government in secret attempted to (and had to stop due to the outrage) link various (then paper) administrative files into a centralized computer database through a single social security number.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

sneak 4y ago

> Germany leans heavily to more and more privacy because they have the experience in recent memory of what a government can do with vast information collection and centralized authority. I theorize that in a hundred years or so, North Americans will have learned this lesson the hard way and will have atrocities in recent history, too. I'm sad I won't see the day when Bluffdale is repurposed as a memorial to state surveillance, much like the Stasi headquarters are now in Berlin.

bakuninsbart 4y ago

Can't find the study now, but there was a sociological survey of software engineers in the US and Europe, one really interesting thing was that the top social concern when implementing solutions for Americans was fairness, for Germans it was privacy. The other concern didn't even make the top 5 for either.

qikInNdOutReply 4y ago

If china ever gets democratic, a new mighty privacy player will appear. Chinas citizens have the same nasty experience as east germans had with the stasi and the poles, chechs with the cheka. They have been spied upon, reported upon by there fellow citizen and have been victims of "zersetzung". Aka social engineering to destroy a citizen. https://www.stasi-unterlagen-archiv.de/mfs-lexikon/detail/zersetzung/ https://www.stasi-unterlagen-archiv.de/mfs-lexikon/detail/ze... Link is german: Shows how denunciation aka controlled leaking of private life like affairs was used, to destroy the lifes of resisting citizens. PS: FB and Google could in theory use similar instruments against citizens that put pressure on them. Nobody could ever catch them at it. If the ccp ever gets swept away and replaced by a new better china, the resulting parties will outdo one another to promise freedom and privacy.

Swizec 4y ago
Hey hey hey, don’t leave us ex-Yugoslavians out! We had UDBA and political prisons and much of the rest. I hear it was “great” (too young to remember/experience myself). Yes it wasn’t as bad as many other places. But bad enough for people to know there are things you can and can’t talk about in public. Growing up it was interesting to observe how my history class evolved from elementary to high school as news and declassifications trickled out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Security_Administration_(Yugoslavia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Security_Administration_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Political_repression_in_Communist_Yugoslavia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Political_repression_...
- qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
  Ah, do you have "Auskunftsrecht", were you can hand in your familys name at the states office, and they will crawl the Security office documentation for your name and give you all the information on all the people who brought shame upon themselves? Bonuspoints: If you had family who was horrible in the Nazi times and the descendants then were horrible during Stasi times. And you know, anyone who can remember the name can crawl that info.. makes you wish, the ground could melt and swallow you. Imagine that info got bundled into a family dharma app, were crimes would follow your family name through the generations. Nowhere on the planet, can you escape the murder spree of grandpas uncle.
  - Swizec 4y ago
    Well no, because many (most?) of the people who were bad during nazi times simply got killed by the communists and put in unmarked mass graves. No records.
  - shadowgovt 4y ago
    Many cultures have a simple "You are not guilty of crimes other people committed" rule baked into their law and culture to accommodate this, because what you're describing is also just known as "history." In general, most people have at least one near ancestor that did something terrible. That makes none of the descendents terrible people.

BlueTemplar 4y ago

I don't understand that last bit : in my understanding, the way that social security numbers are used in the US would be illegal in most (?) countries in Europe ? For instance, in France specifically since the 1974 SAFARI scandal that resulted in the creation of the French data protection authority and assorted laws in 1978, and happened when the government in secret attempted to (and had to stop due to the outrage) link various (then paper) administrative files into a centralized computer database through a single social security number.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]