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At first it seemed like the layoffs were legitimately needed by some companies. But now it feels like "this is a good time" is the reason du jour. An excuse to

At first it seemed like the layoffs were legitimately needed by some companies. But now it feels like "this is a good time" is the reason du jour. An excuse to cut some projects that haven't panned out, dump a bunch of lower performers, and general other cleanup. DocuSign may have laid-off 700 people, but they have 162 open jobs and most of those list "multiple locations" which probably means they will hire more than one of each role. I noticed the same at Okta's layoff, 300 people cut... but at least a hundred open jobs. And yes, some of this is "rebalancing". Turns out not everything is staying the same after the pandemic shifts to endemic mode. Maybe not all those sales staff (or whatever projects) are still needed. But it still feels like a lot of this is "lets boost the stock value" based logic.

nivenkos 4y ago
Hope the employees form trade unions and workers' councils to help stop this bullshit. Look at DigitalOcean - literally doing "layoffs" whilst shifting hiring to Pakistan: https://www.theregister.com/2023/02/15/digitalocean_layoffs/ https://www.theregister.com/2023/02/15/digitalocean_layoffs/
- myth_drannon 4y ago
  That's the price of real remote work culture which started in honest during the pandemic. I'm seeing US based employees replaced by LATAM based one. This is not the outsourcing scare of the 00's, this is real and it works very well.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - _vbnz 4y ago
    As a Europoor it might actually increase our wages at least!
    - AlchemistCamp 4y ago
      Would you be willing to move to Latin America to take advantage of the trend?
    - Pet_Ant 4y ago
      This is the first time I've heard the term "Europoor"... despite being ethnically "Europoor" (living abroad). For those who haven't seen it before, it apparently mean "European, but from one of the poorer European nations, mainly from eastern Europe."
      - nivenkos 4y ago
        I'm from Northern Europe, but it became popular in the stupidpol and cscareerquestions subreddits on Reddit as European salaries are so, so much lower. There was a salary survey in my company and even in Northern Europe - every single European engineer entry was less than half the salary of every single US engineer entry.
      - michpoch 4y ago
        I don't think Eastern Europe would provide many software engineers nowadays, with the exodus from Russia and war in Ukraine. The poor part of Europe is now south - but I am not seeing many devs there either.
      - mathverse 4y ago
        Nope it does not. It's a meme referring to the fact that europeans despite living in rich countries are poor in comparison to exorbitant american tech wages.
        SR2Z 4y ago
        It's a meme about how even "developed" European countries significantly lag US across the board economically - things like employment rates, standard-of-living, wages, productivity, etc. Tech wages are just one particularly egregious example of how European policy tends to suppress productivity.
  - tedivm 4y ago
    I was hit by layoffs but just got several offers. One thing I've noticed is that startups and smaller companies are moving more junior work offshore but are still keeping the higher roles in house (I'm a Principal). Most of the companies I interviewed with talked about working with teams off shore. I will say that a couple of the companies did this for prototyping but were in the process of reversing it and bringing roles back to the US. Long term I think this is going to result in some interesting changes- senior people don't just come from no where, they're junior people who gained experience and continued learning.
    - perfecthjrjth 4y ago
      Today's juniors are tomorrow's seniors and principals. What's gonna happen in 2030s?
  - mathverse 4y ago
    Outsourcing always existed and was the main driver during 2010-2012 era where a lot of jobs went to offshore. Remote work did not change anything.
  - rhaway84773 4y ago
    I’ve been saying this for a while, but a decade from now we’re gonna look back with wonder at the fact that workers in the US had more power than a long time in 2021-2022 and they used all of that to make it easy to move their jobs overseas and destroy the advantages they had over their peers from poor countries. If you insist that remote working is as good as being physically present with your colleagues, then you’re basically telling companies that the reason they were paying higher salaries to their American employees doesn’t actually exist.
    - patrick451 4y ago
      Yes. I think this is a good example of how locally greedy behavior can lead to globally sub-optimal outcomes.
- aliqot 4y ago
  Im seeing a pattern of tech companies going public the shitting the bed every time. Digitalocean, Rackspace, the list goes on. Folks, stop doing this. This is squarely the fault of the VC-Startup overleveraged model where the public listing or SalesForce acquisition is the end goal but its about the most disingenuous and disrespectful thing you can do to the user these days because it's so tried and true what happens next. Haha, sorry, where are my manners.. ahem.. Blood for the blood god!
- jimbob45 4y ago
  I'm staunchly anti-union and even I don't see another way forward. It increasingly seems like every company is colluding to set policies, whether it be salary, layoffs, hiring policies, or remote policies. What else is going to bring back your company to the table to negotiate with you as an individual company other than unionizing? I don't think there's any governmental function for legislating away inter-corporation collusion, now or historically.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  >Look at DigitalOcean - literally doing "layoffs" whilst shifting hiring to Pakistan This seems completely consistent. Layoffs are intended to save money and Pakistani workers are cheaper.
  - _vbnz 4y ago
    In some countries layoffs like this are done as redundancies though, like in Sweden they have to declare a work shortage and cannot re-hire in the same roles (in Sweden) for a few months. That said, internationally they'll be different subsidiaries so they can do whatever they want. We have global capitalist power but not global worker power.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      >We have global capitalist power but not global worker power. Which is a tremendous advantage to the American worker, who would balk at global average compensation and quality of life.
- trhwoway1234 4y ago
  Deliveroo has just done the same. They are laying off 350 people mainly UK tech based. At the same time they are still hiring in India.
kyawzazaw 4y ago
> dump a bunch of lower performers I don't think this part is how companies are actually doing
kyawzazaw 4y ago
> most of those list "multiple locations" which probably means they will hire more than one of each role I would have assumed they are just open to more locations, not multiple headcount
thiscatis 4y ago
"An excuse to cut some projects that haven't panned out, dump a bunch of lower performers, and general other cleanup" How is stopping bad projects, letting go non-performers and cleaning up an excuse and not just plain smart business? People in this hackernews bubble are seriously disconnected from the real world.
- l33t233372 4y ago
  Grandparent post didn’t say letting go low performers was an excuse. The comment was saying that the current climate is giving them free reign to make the “plain smart business” move of firing those people without the typical negative reputation associated with mass performance based firings.
- wombatpm 4y ago
  How long were these bad projects allowed to fester? Why was nothing done sooner? Suddenly these CEOs wake up and decide now is the time panic?
  - c0brac0bra 4y ago
    On what basis would you conclude that "now" is not "soonest", other than conjecture?
- lupyro 4y ago
  A layoff should be a last resort, sever the arm to save the body type situation. When projects don't pan out you first try to reallocate those people to more profitable areas. Also use this time to reflect on why these project didn't pan out, learn from those who worked on it and try to avoid making the same mistake in the future. With bad performers, you put them on a performance improvement plan (pip). General other cleanup is vague, but in most cases there's a more pragmatic approach. Again, sometimes things are so bad you have to resort to worse options. We're in a recession, stocks are going to dip, just focus on the fundamentals and it'll be over before you know it. Instead execs are burning their culture and moral for a temporary boost.
- cyanydeez 4y ago
stuckinhell 4y ago
A lot of executives are using this opportunity to get rid of people pushing social activism thru the corporation or firm. Social activists at major technology companies have been revealed to be undermining the company or attacking the executive class over unpopular decisions like working with the military (twitter leaks,google, facebook etc. Many boomer and gen x executives were astonished at the level of activism are cleaning house in their firm or fiefdoms.
- nebula8804 4y ago
  Any evidence for this? Or is this just your fantasy?
  - stuckinhell 4y ago
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-24/tech-layoffs-are-hitting-diversity-and-inclusion-jobs-hard https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-24/tech-layo...
- spacephysics 4y ago
  I think there’s a balance between activism, and doing the job you were hired for. I’ve been at a handful of companies, and there’s always some who seem to be more involved in the diversity groups than the actual work their job title shows. And in many cases, me and colleagues (white males, not that it should matter but context is context) felt uneasy about some of the general rhetoric. Some knew the groups were just lip service, while others saw the groups as enacting global change. I personally haven’t sorted it out, I’m still thinking about it. But it seems odd how heavy some college curriculum, and high school for that matter (myself in college not long ago, my brother in HS), focus on being an activist. Sure that’s great to want change in your community, but I feel the desire to be an activist for something was taught over the desire to foster a local, welcoming community.
  - stuckinhell 4y ago
    It's a generational thing too. The younger generations mostly seem to believe activism is all encompassing part of your life. The older generations mostly believe business is business.
oxfordmale 4y ago
DocuSign's values: >> You can count on us be honest, open, and do our best to do what’s right, every day. Doing what is right is clearly just about optimising shareholder dividends. Further down: >> And for that, you’ll be loved by us, our customers, and the world in which we live. Love is very fleeting, apparently. Of course, this is all fair game in business. However, companies shouldn't be surprised if many of their staff take a cynic view of their company values.
- thunky 4y ago
  > companies shouldn't be surprised if many of their staff take a cynic view of their company values I think it's safe to assume that everyone already knows that "company values" and quotes like the ones you shared are pure PR bullshit.

nivenkos 4y ago

Hope the employees form trade unions and workers' councils to help stop this bullshit. Look at DigitalOcean - literally doing "layoffs" whilst shifting hiring to Pakistan: https://www.theregister.com/2023/02/15/digitalocean_layoffs/ https://www.theregister.com/2023/02/15/digitalocean_layoffs/

myth_drannon 4y ago
That's the price of real remote work culture which started in honest during the pandemic. I'm seeing US based employees replaced by LATAM based one. This is not the outsourcing scare of the 00's, this is real and it works very well.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- _vbnz 4y ago
  As a Europoor it might actually increase our wages at least!
  - AlchemistCamp 4y ago
    Would you be willing to move to Latin America to take advantage of the trend?
  - Pet_Ant 4y ago
    This is the first time I've heard the term "Europoor"... despite being ethnically "Europoor" (living abroad). For those who haven't seen it before, it apparently mean "European, but from one of the poorer European nations, mainly from eastern Europe."
    - nivenkos 4y ago
      I'm from Northern Europe, but it became popular in the stupidpol and cscareerquestions subreddits on Reddit as European salaries are so, so much lower. There was a salary survey in my company and even in Northern Europe - every single European engineer entry was less than half the salary of every single US engineer entry.
    - michpoch 4y ago
      I don't think Eastern Europe would provide many software engineers nowadays, with the exodus from Russia and war in Ukraine. The poor part of Europe is now south - but I am not seeing many devs there either.
    - mathverse 4y ago
      Nope it does not. It's a meme referring to the fact that europeans despite living in rich countries are poor in comparison to exorbitant american tech wages.
      - SR2Z 4y ago
        It's a meme about how even "developed" European countries significantly lag US across the board economically - things like employment rates, standard-of-living, wages, productivity, etc. Tech wages are just one particularly egregious example of how European policy tends to suppress productivity.
- tedivm 4y ago
  I was hit by layoffs but just got several offers. One thing I've noticed is that startups and smaller companies are moving more junior work offshore but are still keeping the higher roles in house (I'm a Principal). Most of the companies I interviewed with talked about working with teams off shore. I will say that a couple of the companies did this for prototyping but were in the process of reversing it and bringing roles back to the US. Long term I think this is going to result in some interesting changes- senior people don't just come from no where, they're junior people who gained experience and continued learning.
  - perfecthjrjth 4y ago
    Today's juniors are tomorrow's seniors and principals. What's gonna happen in 2030s?
- mathverse 4y ago
  Outsourcing always existed and was the main driver during 2010-2012 era where a lot of jobs went to offshore. Remote work did not change anything.
- rhaway84773 4y ago
  I’ve been saying this for a while, but a decade from now we’re gonna look back with wonder at the fact that workers in the US had more power than a long time in 2021-2022 and they used all of that to make it easy to move their jobs overseas and destroy the advantages they had over their peers from poor countries. If you insist that remote working is as good as being physically present with your colleagues, then you’re basically telling companies that the reason they were paying higher salaries to their American employees doesn’t actually exist.
  - patrick451 4y ago
    Yes. I think this is a good example of how locally greedy behavior can lead to globally sub-optimal outcomes.
aliqot 4y ago
Im seeing a pattern of tech companies going public the shitting the bed every time. Digitalocean, Rackspace, the list goes on. Folks, stop doing this. This is squarely the fault of the VC-Startup overleveraged model where the public listing or SalesForce acquisition is the end goal but its about the most disingenuous and disrespectful thing you can do to the user these days because it's so tried and true what happens next. Haha, sorry, where are my manners.. ahem.. Blood for the blood god!
jimbob45 4y ago
I'm staunchly anti-union and even I don't see another way forward. It increasingly seems like every company is colluding to set policies, whether it be salary, layoffs, hiring policies, or remote policies. What else is going to bring back your company to the table to negotiate with you as an individual company other than unionizing? I don't think there's any governmental function for legislating away inter-corporation collusion, now or historically.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
s1artibartfast 4y ago
>Look at DigitalOcean - literally doing "layoffs" whilst shifting hiring to Pakistan This seems completely consistent. Layoffs are intended to save money and Pakistani workers are cheaper.
- _vbnz 4y ago
  In some countries layoffs like this are done as redundancies though, like in Sweden they have to declare a work shortage and cannot re-hire in the same roles (in Sweden) for a few months. That said, internationally they'll be different subsidiaries so they can do whatever they want. We have global capitalist power but not global worker power.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    >We have global capitalist power but not global worker power. Which is a tremendous advantage to the American worker, who would balk at global average compensation and quality of life.
trhwoway1234 4y ago
Deliveroo has just done the same. They are laying off 350 people mainly UK tech based. At the same time they are still hiring in India.

kyawzazaw 4y ago

> dump a bunch of lower performers I don't think this part is how companies are actually doing

kyawzazaw 4y ago

> most of those list "multiple locations" which probably means they will hire more than one of each role I would have assumed they are just open to more locations, not multiple headcount

thiscatis 4y ago

"An excuse to cut some projects that haven't panned out, dump a bunch of lower performers, and general other cleanup" How is stopping bad projects, letting go non-performers and cleaning up an excuse and not just plain smart business? People in this hackernews bubble are seriously disconnected from the real world.

l33t233372 4y ago
Grandparent post didn’t say letting go low performers was an excuse. The comment was saying that the current climate is giving them free reign to make the “plain smart business” move of firing those people without the typical negative reputation associated with mass performance based firings.
wombatpm 4y ago
How long were these bad projects allowed to fester? Why was nothing done sooner? Suddenly these CEOs wake up and decide now is the time panic?
- c0brac0bra 4y ago
  On what basis would you conclude that "now" is not "soonest", other than conjecture?
lupyro 4y ago
A layoff should be a last resort, sever the arm to save the body type situation. When projects don't pan out you first try to reallocate those people to more profitable areas. Also use this time to reflect on why these project didn't pan out, learn from those who worked on it and try to avoid making the same mistake in the future. With bad performers, you put them on a performance improvement plan (pip). General other cleanup is vague, but in most cases there's a more pragmatic approach. Again, sometimes things are so bad you have to resort to worse options. We're in a recession, stocks are going to dip, just focus on the fundamentals and it'll be over before you know it. Instead execs are burning their culture and moral for a temporary boost.
cyanydeez 4y ago

stuckinhell 4y ago

A lot of executives are using this opportunity to get rid of people pushing social activism thru the corporation or firm. Social activists at major technology companies have been revealed to be undermining the company or attacking the executive class over unpopular decisions like working with the military (twitter leaks,google, facebook etc. Many boomer and gen x executives were astonished at the level of activism are cleaning house in their firm or fiefdoms.

nebula8804 4y ago
Any evidence for this? Or is this just your fantasy?
- stuckinhell 4y ago
  https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-24/tech-layoffs-are-hitting-diversity-and-inclusion-jobs-hard https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-24/tech-layo...
spacephysics 4y ago
I think there’s a balance between activism, and doing the job you were hired for. I’ve been at a handful of companies, and there’s always some who seem to be more involved in the diversity groups than the actual work their job title shows. And in many cases, me and colleagues (white males, not that it should matter but context is context) felt uneasy about some of the general rhetoric. Some knew the groups were just lip service, while others saw the groups as enacting global change. I personally haven’t sorted it out, I’m still thinking about it. But it seems odd how heavy some college curriculum, and high school for that matter (myself in college not long ago, my brother in HS), focus on being an activist. Sure that’s great to want change in your community, but I feel the desire to be an activist for something was taught over the desire to foster a local, welcoming community.
- stuckinhell 4y ago
  It's a generational thing too. The younger generations mostly seem to believe activism is all encompassing part of your life. The older generations mostly believe business is business.

oxfordmale 4y ago

DocuSign's values: >> You can count on us be honest, open, and do our best to do what’s right, every day. Doing what is right is clearly just about optimising shareholder dividends. Further down: >> And for that, you’ll be loved by us, our customers, and the world in which we live. Love is very fleeting, apparently. Of course, this is all fair game in business. However, companies shouldn't be surprised if many of their staff take a cynic view of their company values.

thunky 4y ago
> companies shouldn't be surprised if many of their staff take a cynic view of their company values I think it's safe to assume that everyone already knows that "company values" and quotes like the ones you shared are pure PR bullshit.